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NO MORE AIRBALLS!!


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ATrumpetBrony
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: NO MORE AIRBALLS!! Reply with quote

Hi, everyone.
At the moment, I'm having a lot of trouble with NOT making airballs on the flugel. It seems when I'm going to play any note above a C in the staff after just a *little* fatigue, nothing comes out. Generally on trumpet I can make it work, even when a little fatigued while in performance mode, but on flugel it just doesn't happen. I'm not sure if it's too much/little pressure, or that I haven't achieved an optimally flexible / pliable embouchure yet.

What can I practice for this? I've been doing glisses on trombone a lot lately, and that's improved the CRAP out of my embouchure response and tone quality. Is there something similar for valved instruments, maybe?
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Rickyroughneck
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the mouthpiece rim very different to that on your trumpet?

What facilitates easy transitioning between trumpet and flugel is to have a similar rim shape for both, where only big changes are to the cup and bore changes.
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rickyroughneck wrote:
Is the mouthpiece rim very different to that on your trumpet?

What facilitates easy transitioning between trumpet and flugel is to have a similar rim shape for both, where only big changes are to the cup and bore changes.


The common denominator! Same for transitioning style characteristics. This is where "screw type" mouthpieces shine; interchangeable, common rim, different cup, throat, backbore, shank. A most workable solution to so many problems. Also, practice time on the actual instrument(s) that you perform with (ex. Trumpet/Flugel on gig means time with both in warmup and practice).
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: NO MORE AIRBALLS!! Reply with quote

ATrumpetBrony wrote:
At the moment, I'm having a lot of trouble with NOT making airballs on the flugel...What can I practice for this?

1. Sound production exercises, a la Merri Franquin: start a metronome at 60 bpm and play a half note very softly (ppp). Rest 6 beats, removing the mouthpiece from your lips, and then reset/breathe/play another half note on a different pitch very softly in perfect time with the metronome. Choose pitches across the range that you want to play on flugel (don't neglect the low pitches).

2. Long tones, a la Merri Franquin and E. F. Goldman: start softly (pp), crescendo gradually to a full sound (but not harsh or edgy), hold it, then decrescendo back down to soft (pp) and hold it. Rest a few counts, then do another long tone on another pitch. Range from very low to the range you want to cover on flugelhorn.

Do these exercises every day on flugel for a few minutes. Don't get discouraged if they sound terrible at first--they're harder than they look. If you don't start a pitch cleanly, rest and try again. You must be determined to start every note cleanly and not to settle for an airball or poor start. If you crack a note (and you will), don't berate yourself. Stay calm, think about what went wrong, think about what it would sound like and feel like to play it correctly, and try again. Over time and with consistent practice, you'll get better and your chops will become more reliable in playing these notes.

You might also think about your flugel mouthpiece. The super deep ones are more difficult for tone production, especially up high. If you're playing a super deep mpc, you might make it easier if you go with a shallower piece, as long as you still like the sound.
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ATrumpetBrony
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for taking a look.
I'm using a 14b4 on trumpet and a 14f4 on flugel. Purportedly roughly the same sized rim with a (much) deeper cup and shorter shank. I've not been able to tell any difference in the *rim size* in just blind testing or use, but the difference blow on the horns might have something to do with it.

dstdenis, do you recommend using air attacks on those exercises? That's what I've mainly read about long tones, but I don't want to gum anything up. Thanks for the info though, I'll start adding these into my routine!
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be that the "alpha angle" (the shape of the cup below the bite) on the flugel piece doesn't suit you.

If that angle is low, as it tends to be with deep cups found on flugel pieces (and on brassband cornet pieces), that could be part of the problem - you might simply be someone who plays better with a little more support from the cup.

If there's a shop fairly local to you where you could try a few different pieces out (forget rim matching, that's only any good if both pieces work for you, if they don't then it's not something you should feel locked into) then it might be worth doing that just to see whether it helps.

I'm not someone that plays a lot of flugel (certainly nowhere near as much as some guys here), but I do recall having a play with an acquaintances Warburton flugel piece and finding that far more supportive than anything else I'd used (Wick, Laskey, Yamaha) - I can't for the life of me remember whether it was an FLM or FL model, but the sound was nice and it was very, very easy to play.

I'm not saying that every problem should be overcome with equipment changes - not only can it get very expensive, it simply doesn't work for a lot of problems... but having said that, fighting equipment that doesn't suit you (if that's even the problem here - it may not be) is not something I've found conducive to progress.
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect you're choking it off somehow, OR you're aperture is getting too wide, which can also be exacerbated by pressure as a natural reaction to fatigue. Try to play softer on those notes and concentrate on saying "M" with a bit more lower lip out.

I've actually heard famous players try to "muscle" a flugel on occasion, and it's just not a good thing, LOL! A good concept-of-tone, especially on and particular to the flugel, for me, helps me embrace "relaxed" playing a bit more, which I then desperately try to relate back to trumpet! The flugel just won't let me play with too much tension, anywhere.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


It could be that the "alpha angle" (the shape of the cup below the bite) on the flugel piece doesn't suit you.

If that angle is low, as it tends to be with deep cups found on flugel pieces (and on brassband cornet pieces), that could be part of the problem - you might simply be someone who plays better with a little more support from the cup.


Interesting. I would say the opposite is true with regards to alpha angle. I find a higher angle interferes with vibration and freedom of the lips.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Quote:


It could be that the "alpha angle" (the shape of the cup below the bite) on the flugel piece doesn't suit you.

If that angle is low, as it tends to be with deep cups found on flugel pieces (and on brassband cornet pieces), that could be part of the problem - you might simply be someone who plays better with a little more support from the cup.


Interesting. I would say the opposite is true with regards to alpha angle. I find a higher angle interferes with vibration and freedom of the lips.


If I may use an analogy (because for some strange reason, I find it fun trying to think them up)...

Let's say you're wearing a pair of trousers, and you need a belt. There is definitely a right amount of support for the belt to give - if it's too tight, you'll feel it squeezing your waistline, if it's too loose your trousers fall down.
These aren't the same problem and they have opposite causes (too tight vs too loose), but they result in the same thing - discomfort.


IMHO it's similar with mouthpieces - too high an alpha angle (for a given player) can choke off the vibrations and cause the player problems, and too low an alpha angle can prevent the lips from vibrating in the first place.
It feels a little bit odd using the term as if we can look at a piece and magically know the value of the alpha angle (unless it's a GR and they've told us), but it's become the accepted term and it frames the concept in a way that's easier to understand. Unless we're looking at fairly extreme ends of the spectrum it might not be easy to judge - it's fairly obvious that a 1X is a very low alpha and a 14a4 is a very high one, but between two pieces that are a couple of degrees apart it may not be visually so obvious.


I figure since GR coined the term "alpha angle" I'd double check what they have to say at this point...
http://grmouthpieces.com/alpha-angle.html

(I'm picking and choosing points from the lists to illustrate my point, rather than just copy/pasting it all - you can read the full lists in the link).

if the alpha angle is just too high for you, you could experience lack of control, high blow resistance because the chops are being held too closed, poor articulations, intonation may suffer, thin sound, your chops could feel like they are "thinning out", and you could actually "bottom out" stopping vibrations completely.

If it is too low, it may feel like you have no support or lack of compression, articulation will suffer and you may experience what we call an "air biscuit".
An Air Biscuit occurs when your lips are pinned open, the air keeps flowing, but the vibration stops.
If the Alpha angle is too low, intonation, endurance, attacks, flexibilities, brilliance, and upper register may suffer.


So it would seem (to my reading) that both too high OR too low for a given player is a bad thing - with a similar end result: less vibrations than are necessary for good playing.[/i][/b]
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good technical info about mouthpieces, but doesn't offer much except for a mouthpiece change, which is somewhat extreme for a first-step solution. I'd be reluctant to hold the mouthpiece responsible for ALL of it - that's not to say that a different piece can't help - and how many of us "know somebody" who has 30 trumpet mouthpieces in the drawer and only one or two for their flugel? LOL Most of us don't get caught up in the protracted mouthpiece quest for flugel the way we do for our main ax; hence, the chances are that it is indeed further from our mythical ideal.

On the other hand, I've always said that if every horn came with a built-in 7C and that was the only mouthpiece in the world, most of us would still learn to play on it, LOL! I just find it more of a priority (and less expensive) to evaluate and eliminate a suspect embouchure, first, before we can wholly blame the mouthpiece. This way, we can better identify and establish what specific changes in mouthpiece geometry should be tried next.
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

furcifer wrote:
Lots of good technical info about mouthpieces, but doesn't offer much except for a mouthpiece change, which is somewhat extreme for a first-step solution.

.....

I just find it more of a priority (and less expensive) to evaluate and eliminate a suspect embouchure, first, before we can wholly blame the mouthpiece.


I'm not necessarily saying it's definitely the problem, but it could easily be a large part of it - especially if one buys into the church of rim-matching without testing the piece for compatibility.

I would also say that, to me, eliminating extreme equipment (of which the average sub-10 degree alpha flugelhorn piece is to an embouchure developed around a noticeably higher alpha) is not an extreme solution.
We're not talking about wholly blaming the mouthpiece at any rate, but the player-mouthpiece match/mismatch.

Personally, I'd try a couple (if convenient) just to see whether there might be any validity to that theory, that's all.


I suppose it depends what the intention is - is this something you just want to dabble and double in or is it significant enough to warrant significant work that may or may not help the primary horn?
For me, I don't use it enough to want to sink that kind of time or attention into a secondary instrument - same with my BBC cornet piece, I could practice regularly on it and make the wick's work better again, but I get results more naturally and with less specific practice on it if I use a Curry BBC or GR#7 which have slightly higher alpha's.

My 2c.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ATrumpetBrony wrote:
I'm using a 14b4 on trumpet and a 14f4 on flugel.

Seems a reasonable choice.
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
dstdenis, do you recommend using air attacks on those exercises? That's what I've mainly read about long tones, but I don't want to gum anything up.

Great question. There are benefits to doing exercises like these with breath attacks ("ho" or "poo") and with light articulation from the tongue. Breath attacks will improve embouchure response, because you have to get the lips vibrating without any assistance from a blast of air from a hard articulation. Light articulation will improve coordination between air, tongue and embouchure, which is the ultimate goal.

Franquin calls for light articulation with his exercises. Shuebruk has similar exercises, and he calls for poo attacks on the first five sets then light articulation after that. John Daniel has a whole bunch of breath attack exercises to improve response. Some even pair a breath attack immediately followed by an articulation from the tongue. Two-for-one. It's all good.
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
furcifer wrote:
Lots of good technical info about mouthpieces, but doesn't offer much except for a mouthpiece change, which is somewhat extreme for a first-step solution.

.....

I just find it more of a priority (and less expensive) to evaluate and eliminate a suspect embouchure, first, before we can wholly blame the mouthpiece.


I'm not necessarily saying it's definitely the problem, but it could easily be a large part of it - especially if one buys into the church of rim-matching without testing the piece for compatibility.

I would also say that, to me, eliminating extreme equipment (of which the average sub-10 degree alpha flugelhorn piece is to an embouchure developed around a noticeably higher alpha) is not an extreme solution.
We're not talking about wholly blaming the mouthpiece at any rate, but the player-mouthpiece match/mismatch.

Personally, I'd try a couple (if convenient) just to see whether there might be any validity to that theory, that's all.


I suppose it depends what the intention is - is this something you just want to dabble and double in or is it significant enough to warrant significant work that may or may not help the primary horn?
For me, I don't use it enough to want to sink that kind of time or attention into a secondary instrument - same with my BBC cornet piece, I could practice regularly on it and make the wick's work better again, but I get results more naturally and with less specific practice on it if I use a Curry BBC or GR#7 which have slightly higher alpha's.

My 2c.


Yeah, I'm with ya. Flugels themselves can be picky about mouthpieces, too. Oddly enough, I'd played on the Getzen 3C flugel piece that came in the case for years without giving it a second thought, but then when it finally wore out, I did some research and sent off for a Marcinkiewicz 3FLD. To look at them side-by-side, you'd think they were identical, but WOW what a nice improvement! For one thing, the new piece gaps out an extra 3/16" or so.

Now the horn feels like it plays itself. Fun fact: Believe it or not, that horn was a gift. I'd never played a Getzen or much of any flugel before I got it. I had actually tried an old Yamaha and just mentioned that I desperately wanted a flugel for a solo I had coming up. Parents, who knew almost nothing, just picked it out of the blue, and man, what a home run, LOL! That was 30 years ago! Silver plate still looks new and people have made offers on it because the newer, updated designs play so much heavier.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstdenis wrote:
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
I'm using a 14b4 on trumpet and a 14f4 on flugel.

Seems a reasonable choice.
ATrumpetBrony wrote:
dstdenis, do you recommend using air attacks on those exercises? That's what I've mainly read about long tones, but I don't want to gum anything up.

Great question. There are benefits to doing exercises like these with breath attacks ("ho" or "poo") and with light articulation from the tongue. Breath attacks will improve embouchure response, because you have to get the lips vibrating without any assistance from a blast of air from a hard articulation. Light articulation will improve coordination between air, tongue and embouchure, which is the ultimate goal.

Franquin calls for light articulation with his exercises. Shuebruk has similar exercises, and he calls for poo attacks on the first five sets then light articulation after that. John Daniel has a whole bunch of breath attack exercises to improve response. Some even pair a breath attack immediately followed by an articulation from the tongue. Two-for-one. It's all good.


Two thoughts here. I tried a Yamaha AKA Schilke clone flugel mouthpiece and it was the least responsive and most difficult to play flugel piece I have. It was fighting me every step of the way. I play Curry but Wick is also good. My Currys go from FLM the most shallow to FLD the deepest. My fave is the FLM. It's like a race car for response.

Second thought is a recommendation for the John Daniel exercises. They really made a huge difference for me.
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FrankM
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 for John Daniel. If you haven't encountered him look him up on YouTube. Then buy his book, and get to work. Cheers, Frank
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just took up the flugelhorn after decades of not playing. I have no intention of playing trumpet or cornet, but i have found that by borrowing a trumpet with a 7c mouthpiece that the trumpet seems far more responsive, & that I really must be having difficulty adjusting to the much deeper Curry 7FL & Wicks 4FLD that I am using now. I just ordered a shallower Curry 7FLM & hope this will help in time. But I am tired of airballs myself.

Specifically in my case I think cotton mouth is a contributing factor. It seems that the embouchure needs to make minute migratory adjustments as one plays & if the mouthpiece & lips aren't properly lubricated one will have some issues.

Has the equivalent of artificial tears for embouchure been invented yet?
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bassguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

furcifer wrote:
Lots of good technical info about mouthpieces, but doesn't offer much except for a mouthpiece change, which is somewhat extreme for a first-step solution. I'd be reluctant to hold the mouthpiece responsible for ALL of it - that's not to say that a different piece can't help - and how many of us "know somebody" who has 30 trumpet mouthpieces in the drawer and only one or two for their flugel? LOL Most of us don't get caught up in the protracted mouthpiece quest for flugel the way we do for our main ax; hence, the chances are that it is indeed further from our mythical ideal.

On the other hand, I've always said that if every horn came with a built-in 7C and that was the only mouthpiece in the world, most of us would still learn to play on it, LOL! I just find it more of a priority (and less expensive) to evaluate and eliminate a suspect embouchure, first, before we can wholly blame the mouthpiece. This way, we can better identify and establish what specific changes in mouthpiece geometry should be tried next.


Your observation about a built in 7C is amusing, & given that trumpets & cornets almost invariably are sold to students with 7C mouthpieces, you can say many of us found a way to play on them. For that reason it seems rather odd that flugelhorns come with 3FLs or 3Cs. My flugelhorn came with a 3 that is about .66" deep. Even though I was using a Bach 1 trumpet mpc when I stopped playing, decades ago, I can't do anything with the 3 FL. All airballss, poor slotting & limited rang.. It does seem more congruous to start playing flugelhorn using the same inner rim size as on ones trumpet, & then incrementally increase the depth of the V cup--starting at about a half inch?.

I remember reading (here on TMF?) that in the 60s Freddie Hubbard played a student model Mercedes or Aristocrat Bach trumpet with its stock 7C mouthpiece, & ditto with the mouthpuece that came with his Cuesnon flugelhorn ( 3?)

Also. I should ask, am I the only one here at all hampered by chronic cotton mouth syndrome?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: NO MORE AIRBALLS!! Reply with quote

ATrumpetBrony wrote:
Hi, everyone.
At the moment, I'm having a lot of trouble with NOT making airballs on the flugel. It seems when I'm going to play any note above a C in the staff after just a *little* fatigue, nothing comes out.


Hmm. Usually if I'm going to have that problem, it also happens on the flugel, but when playing below the staff, and at very low dynamics, but as you say, it's worse when you're already tired.

I usually chalk it up to not playing flugel often enough apart from brass band rehearsals. It takes time to really get used to the response differences with that giant toilet bowl shaped mouthpiece.

Picking it up on a big band gig for a tune or two just isn't the same as brass band playing. You never have any rests and it's never quiet enough to suit the MD when they go for a lot of dynamic contrast.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bassguy wrote:


Has the equivalent of artificial tears for embouchure been invented yet?


This is sure to open a lively discussion but my personal go-to is Blistex in the tube.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just a follow up. For me going from a Curry 7 FL to a fairly shallow Conn 7CFL has worked wonders, even though there isn't too much to like about the Conn's bright sound, its back pressure & its poor slotting. Still I found it a useful practice mouthpiece for now (until I get that Curry 7 FL-M I ordered--& I hope it will have the race car qualities Richard III described).

My situation is different . I have not played trumpet since the early 80s, & now ONLY intend to play a flugelhorn. I did borrow a trumpet w/a 7C mpc for two weeks & came to the same conclusion that several in this thread have: that adjusting to a deep toilet bowl of a mpc takes some doing, and going deeper incrementally makes senc. (Interesting to see what similar steps the OP has taken, if any) . I am getting back into decent shape now (after only 6 weeks) & I largely credit that to practicing late at night at a whisper (ppp-pp) & reserving louder playing earlier in the day. I will also check out John Daniels.
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