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Flattergrub
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 762
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 Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yawn
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Smith Watkins "Soloist" cornet with K2 and T4 leadpipes and Denis Wick RW4 mpc |
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Scott42486
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 529
Location: San Antonio, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| paultune wrote: | | Flattergrub wrote: |
Jesus - Just unreal. It's like whack-a-mole. Get rid of one jackass and another one pops up. |
Religion and profanity are not allowed. |
And you showing up and spending an entire thread antagonizing a respected horn tech is?
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Bach/Kanstul Frankenhorn
Warburton Mouthpieces |
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paultune
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2013
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Being an idiot and a blowhard is not against the current usage agreement. |
If those characteristics were against the usage agreement, there would be about 10 or 12 members left on the forums. Being a new member shouldn't preclude participation nor negate the validity of one's opinions. Another important point, the ones leaving aren't exactly Nobel laureates and Grammy winners, they are repairmen. |
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etc-etc
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 6190
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| It just so happens that this is not a forum for Grammy laureates, but for trumpeters. For us, instrument makers, repairers, teachers and players ARE the ones to listen to, and not to antagonize. |
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paultune
Regular Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2013
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | It just so happens that this is not a forum for Grammy laureates, but for trumpeters. For us, instrument makers, repairers, teachers and players ARE the ones to listen to, and not to antagonize. |
Grammy laureates ? |
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dmb
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 1305
Location: Anderson, IN
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| Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| paultune wrote: | | etc-etc wrote: | | It just so happens that this is not a forum for Grammy laureates, but for trumpeters. For us, instrument makers, repairers, teachers and players ARE the ones to listen to, and not to antagonize. |
Grammy laureates ? |
Demo.....whats?
No wonder.
_________________
Dan Burton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWuX9zPJWyY
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Olds |
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Conn Collector
Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 212
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | It just so happens that this is not a forum for Grammy laureates, but for trumpeters. For us, instrument makers, repairers, teachers and players ARE the ones to listen to, and not to antagonize. |
I have been cheated in several transactions by both well-known companies and lowly individuals who post in TH.
I've lost a lot of money.
I won't mention their names.
The point is that some well-known people here have been just as un-trustworthy as some unknown people here.
I have also seen many people post misleading and incorrect embouchure information in TH.
Listen to people who post in TH?
Yes.
But also fully investigate what people post here and exercise discernment regarding whether to accept or reject what people post here.
Well-known individuals and well-known companies can be just as wrong as lowly individuals.
Lowly individuals can have just as much insight as big-name people.
Most well-known professional trumpet players would not have had a clue what was really wrong with my embouchure many years ago; so much for the usual "get a professional teacher" advice.
But a lowly local non-professional had a surprising insight that gave me instant remedy.
Conn Collector
_________________
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Maynard playing "Ole"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUinAhSpCdU
Morris playing "Conn 9a - Double C"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nqb-BOftg&feature=youtu.be
“Jesus gives eternal life”
Last edited by Conn Collector on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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david johnson
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2002
Posts: 1616
Location: arkansas/missouri
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| someone reads kirk? lol, I can't believe it. |
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royjohn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:46 am Post subject: |
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I don't get upset about what people post here . . . obviously some are not worth listening to and one has to realize that. I am sorry if some of our experts choose to leave, as they are a good resource, but the truth is that some of them are very talented, but also thin skinned or even arrogant. You can't post to open, lightly moderated forums and expect that there won't be someone wanting to put you in the cross hairs and piss you off.
Folks should realize that there is no such thing as bad publicity. I can't see where Flip Oakes or Josh Landress or James Becker or Michael DelQuadro or Tony Scodwell or Brett or Adam Getzen has been negatively impacted by negative posts here. Perhaps they'd be better off with 100% positives, but that ain't gonna happen and the exposure you get here is overall quite helpful.
If you wanna go 'way, that's your business, but you'd benefit more from staying. I would doubt that many folks stay gone forever. Time to calm down and get on with life, which includes tolerating trolls . . .
However, it does appear that CK has run out of good will here . . . sometimes it is best to ban someone who has such a social tin ear (I think they call it Asperger's Disorder) that they keep everyone in an uproar. . .
I hope we can get back to some civil and interesting discussions somewhere here . . .
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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Conn Collector
Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 212
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| royjohn wrote: | I don't get upset about what people post here . . . obviously some are not worth listening to and one has to realize that. I am sorry if some of our experts choose to leave, as they are a good resource, but the truth is that some of them are very talented, but also thin skinned or even arrogant. You can't post to open, lightly moderated forums and expect that there won't be someone wanting to put you in the cross hairs and piss you off.
Folks should realize that there is no such thing as bad publicity. I can't see where Flip Oakes or Josh Landress or James Becker or Michael DelQuadro or Tony Scodwell or Brett or Adam Getzen has been negatively impacted by negative posts here. Perhaps they'd be better off with 100% positives, but that ain't gonna happen and the exposure you get here is overall quite helpful.
If you wanna go 'way, that's your business, but you'd benefit more from staying. I would doubt that many folks stay gone forever. Time to calm down and get on with life, which includes tolerating trolls . . .
However, it does appear that CK has run out of good will here . . . sometimes it is best to ban someone who has such a social tin ear (I think they call it Asperger's Disorder) that they keep everyone in an uproar. . .
I hope we can get back to some civil and interesting discussions somewhere here . . . |
"it does appear that CK has run out of good will here"
"keep everyone in an uproar"
I have read many posts from many people who defend Kirk's ability to post here, and I can give links to those many posts.
But the posts from people who attack Kirk get all the attention.
"it is best to ban someone"
"I hope we can get back to some civil and interesting discussions somewhere here"
If Kirk is banned, there will be several hateful people still posting in TH
(ironically, the people who post hateful insulting personal attacks at Kirk are some of the very ones who are calling for Kirk to be banned, an example of the pot calling the kettle black),
so banning Kirk is not going to cause sudden harmony within TH.
There will still be people posting hateful insults at Phil Driscoll, Lin Biviano, Patrick Hession, and anyone else they don't like.
I recently had someone here in TH accuse me of being a dishonest un-Christian horn-flipper simply because I bid on an eBay instrument with the intention of re-selling it if I had won it.
I have received obscene emails from TH members.
So there will not be instant harmony at TH if Kirk is banned.
Instead, if Kirk is banned, the hateful people who have attacked Kirk will feel emboldened and empowered to attack other targets.
Conn Collector
_________________
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Maynard playing "Ole"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUinAhSpCdU
Morris playing "Conn 9a - Double C"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nqb-BOftg&feature=youtu.be
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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gruik
Regular Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| david johnson wrote: | | someone reads kirk? lol, I can't believe it. |
Exactly what I thought.
I just can't read a two-page post when it stops making any sense after five words.
I'm more annoyed by trolls who make shorter posts. They're harder to avoid. |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9032
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Surely those senior to me here have a longer run with Kirk and more "right" to their reactions. But it seems to me that he has absolutely no credibility, so why overreact?
If he had some clout or spoke with some authority, I can see how he could get someone's goat. But the guy has none. How can you get yourself all worked up over someone who's words are like the proverbial tree falling in a forest?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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rockford
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 2477
Location: Northern VA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | Surely those senior to me here have a longer run with Kirk and more "right" to their reactions. But it seems to me that he has absolutely no credibility, so why overreact?
If he had some clout or spoke with some authority, I can see how he could get someone's goat. But the guy has none. How can you get yourself all worked up over someone who's words are like the proverbial tree falling in a forest? |
Of course he doesn't have credibility, but new visitors to the forum and people looking for accurate information on the subjects he gets involved with don't always know that. That's why it's important to correct his public misconceptions and misrepresentations.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190. |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:15 am Post subject: |
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And the saddest aspect of all this is that Kirk will undoubtedly get tremendous gratification from all the attention he is now receiving.
The departure of knowledgable members due to Kirk's offensive behavior and the moderators tacet approval of it through their lack of any disciplinary action lessens this place considerably.
Sad.
Brad361
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| rockford wrote: | | kehaulani wrote: | Surely those senior to me here have a longer run with Kirk and more "right" to their reactions. But it seems to me that he has absolutely no credibility, so why overreact?
If he had some clout or spoke with some authority, I can see how he could get someone's goat. But the guy has none. How can you get yourself all worked up over someone who's words are like the proverbial tree falling in a forest? |
Of course he doesn't have credibility, but new visitors to the forum and people looking for accurate information on the subjects he gets involved with don't always know that. That's why it's important to correct his public misconceptions and misrepresentations. |
EXCELLENT point.
Brad361
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9032
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| rockford wrote: | | Of course he doesn't have credibility, but new visitors to the forum and people looking for accurate information on the subjects he gets involved with don't always know that. That's why it's important to correct his public misconceptions and misrepresentations. |
Sure, but that's easily done with posts following one of his. That's the way forums work. I would say, critique his blatherings but don't get caught up in it emotionally.
Now, at some point, the lack of moderation is another issue and I can see some getting upset that Kirk has been allowed to continue. There was a post above (not looking at it now) that mentioned how challenging it is to moderate such a forum. But if you check out Sax on the Web, I believe it has many more members and readers than this one and fewer moderators and they are usually on top of everything.
Personally, I don't care if the moderators seem negligent because Kirk is allowed to stay. He's just not that important.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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gruik
Regular Member
Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| rockford wrote: | | Of course he doesn't have credibility, but new visitors to the forum and people looking for accurate information on the subjects he gets involved with don't always know that. That's why it's important to correct his public misconceptions and misrepresentations. |
In some case it could be useful to correct some of CK's most delirious statements, but I'm not sure it is so important.
The best way to handle internet trolls is to ignore them. Unfortunately there is no better alternative. |
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ohiotpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| gruik wrote: | | rockford wrote: | | Of course he doesn't have credibility, but new visitors to the forum and people looking for accurate information on the subjects he gets involved with don't always know that. That's why it's important to correct his public misconceptions and misrepresentations. |
In some case it could be useful to correct some of CK's most delirious statements, but I'm not sure it is so important.
The best way to handle internet trolls is to ignore them. Unfortunately there is no better alternative. |
In CK's case (and our new Troll) I'm sure if you're the TARGET of these trolls, it's a lot harder to just ignore them. While many of CK's posting were just a long stream of consciousness, often he had a target he was aiming at. A NAMED target or a NAMED group. He would attack, insult, and in one case, try to put her job at risk. If this was YOU being attacked or a FRIEND being attacked it's a lot harder to ignore.
When CK calls the Getzen company liars and crooks for no valid reason (at least none that he uses to back up his claim) there are two folks posting who HAVE that name. How does anyone just ignore that?
Also in CK's case was his ability to screw up a thread. Someone asks a question, another member with reasonable experience goes through the trouble of building a very nice response. Then CK comes in and sprays his bodily fluids and waste products all over the previous efforts and the OP's question or point gets lost and all the effort goes down the drain. Hard to ignore.
The question becomes where is the "Troll line" and how quickly can you eliminate the Troll, because unfortunately, that may be the the only truly long term solution.
_________________
-fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by. |
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mm55
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1412
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Moderators wrote: | | ... and the ip (or multiple ips) from which they post are banned. |
Is the moderation team technically naïve enough to think this is effective?
Some of my posts are from an ISP account which gets a different IP address every time I log in. Others of my posts are from an IP address which is shared by thousands of other users worldwide. Banning an IP address really shows a misunderstanding of how it all works.
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'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
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Moderators
TH Moderator Group
Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 3906
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| Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | Moderators wrote: | | ... and the ip (or multiple ips) from which they post are banned. |
Is the moderation team technically naïve enough to think this is effective?
Some of my posts are from an ISP account which gets a different IP address every time I log in. Others of my posts are from an IP address which is shared by thousands of other users worldwide. Banning an IP address really shows a misunderstanding of how it all works. |
We do understand the limitations of this. It's easy enough for the Moderators to tell from the IP information available to us whether an IP ban would have any effect. |
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