| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dave
Regular Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2002
Posts: 19
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:52 am Post subject: |
 |
|
OK,
You caught my interst. I have been tortured with my embouchure for so long. For the past two years I have been trying to learn Jeff Smiley's balanced Embouchure. I have had improved tone and at times have been very encouraged. I have also had the opposite. (I do think that the BE is a valid system I just feel like two years is a long time and wonder if I am trying to change what is natural for me)
I have watched closely what my chops do and definatly fit into type 4a. I will order the book.
Assuming I am a Type 4a...
How should a Type 4a hold the horn with the left hand? What is a good mpc for a type 4a? any other thoughts are welcome!
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
bgibson
Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2002
Posts: 211
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Assuming I am a Type 4a...
How should a Type 4a hold the horn with the left hand?
Not sure what you mean, other than a firm left hand grip and your left arm away from your body.
There will be some angle for the left arm that will feel more open than other angles. You have to experiment in order to find it. (same as the head angle placement test)
What is a good mpc for a type 4a? any other thoughts are welcome!
Jazz, Legit, shows, lead playing ?????????
Dave;
Doc used to say the punishment must fit the crime.
In my lessons I remember the following quotes:
"Anyone that can play on a flat rim should, but not everyone can play on a flat rim"
"If you can play on a V cup mouthpiece you should"
General rule is a IIIA will go for a wider diameter (point A to point B)
Type IV's can use a smaller diameter than type III's.
These are VERY general statements.
Best bet is to ask either Doug Elliott or Scotty Holbert.
WEG |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JackD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 1436
Location: London, England.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question, but what are the "types" people are referring to? Presumably it's types of embouchure - but how do you find out which you are? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 729
Location: Asheville, NC
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi, Jack.
| Quote: | | Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question, but what are the "types" people are referring to? Presumably it's types of embouchure - but how do you find out which you are? |
That's not a stupid question at all. In fact, in order to follow some of the conversation in this section of the TH forum you've got to have at least a basic understanding of Reinhardt's embouchure types.
First of all, your embouchure type is determined by your natural physical features. I don't know your experiences, but many of us who are dedicated to Reinhardt and the Pivot System came to it because we had advice at one point that went against our normal physical characteristics. In other words, a mouthpiece placement, jaw position, etc. that was recommended for us worked against our jaw shape, lips, teeth, gums, etc.. Perhaps you, or someone you know, does everything that is supposed to be technically "correct," but had less than satisfactory results. This is often because what works well for your teacher isn't the correct embouchure for you.
Before I discuss the embouchure types you need to understand what a "pivot" really is, since there are many misconceptions. The most popular misconception is that a pivot means tilting the horn angle. That's really not what the pivot is. Here is Reinhardt's own definition:
| Quote: | | The PIVOT is controlled by pulling down or pushing up the lips on the teeth with the rim of the mouthpiece. The outer embouchure. . . and the mouthpiece move vertically (some with slight deviations to one side or the other) as one combined unit on the invisible vertical track of the inner embouchure . . .; however, the position of the mouthpiece on the outer embouchure must not be altered in any way. |
- Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, p. 194.
Pivot 1 is to move the mouthpiece and lips in conjunction along the teeth in an upward direction (toward the nose) to ascend and downward direction to descend. Pivot 2 is to move the mouthpiece and lips in conjunction along the teeth in a downward direction (toward the chin) to ascend and an upward direction to descend.
Reinhardt catagorized 4 basic embouchure types with 5 subtypes, resulting in nine common embouchures types. Some of them exhibit the same playing characteristics as other embouchure types but differ mainly in the physical anatomy of the player. Because of this most pivot system player/teachers will refer only to the Type IIIs and Type IVs.
What follows below is from an article I recently wrote that will soon be published on the Online Trombone Journal. I've condensed it from the article a bit. Check out "The Encyclopedia of the Pivot System" for the complete details.
Embouchure Type III
Reinhardt's Type III embouchure, often called the "Jelly Roll Type," plays with a mouthpiece placement with usually only slightly more upper lip inside the mouthpiece cup. Because there is more upper lip than lower lip inside the mouthpiece the air stream is directed at a downward angle inside the mouthpiece cup. The jaw is typically receded beneath the upper and because of this the horn angle is typically tilted lower, often quite extremely. In addition to the receded lower jaw, one of the main distinguishing features of this embouchure type is that the player's lower lip membrane is positioned in and slightly over the lower teeth. As this type player ascends the lower lip roll becomes more pronounced.
The Type III embouchure usually utilizes Reinhardt's Pivot Classification Two, pulling down towards the chin to ascend and pushing up towards the nose to descend. Since Pivot Classification One is not uncommon, a Pivot Test is essential in order to avoid incorrect advice (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, p. 208).
In many cases a Type III player will have difficulties with the extreme upper register, changing types as he or she plays from around a concert F above high B flat or higher. This is particularly common with trumpet players, due to the smaller mouthpiece size and increased demand on faster lip vibrations. In these situations Reinhardt would reclassify this player as a Type IIIA or IIIB, according to their embouchure in the extreme upper register. True Type III players have a jaw that cannot protrude far enough to make a playing on a Type IIIA or Type IIIB possible. (Sheetz, PivoTalk Newsletter, Vol. 2, #3, p. 3).
One common difficulty Type III players have is their necessity of playing with the bell directed towards the floor because of a receded lower jaw. Players with this trouble need to be careful to not put their head too far back and place undue strain on their neck, restricting the throat (Sheetz, Quirks of the Types).
Dave Steinmeyer, Conrad Gozzo, Tommy Dorsey, and Reinhardt himself are good examples of Type III brass players.
Embouchure Type IIIA
The Type IIIA embouchure tends to play with the mouthpiece placed quite high, often just under the nose with trombonists. These players also typically protrude the jaw more than the standard Type III players, but never to the point of thrusting the lower teeth beyond the upper teeth. With the jaw in a more protruded position the horn angle tends to be almost horizontal, and sometimes even higher. Because the upper lip predominates inside the mouthpiece cup this type also is classified as a downstream type.
Type IIIA performers always utilize Pivot Classification One, pushing up towards the nose to ascend and pulling down towards the chin to descend. When a student found that Pivot Classification Two worked more efficiently Reinhardt would classify the player as a Type IIIB (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, pp. 208-209).
Brass players belonging to Reinhardt's Type IIIA embouchure often have a tendency to raise their horn angle while inhaling. When they bring the mouthpiece back down to play they crash the mouthpiece rim against the lips, causing swelling and inhibiting endurance. Type IIIA players of larger mouthpieces, such as trombonists, may find that their nose gets in the way of their ascending pivot, necessitating practice increasing their lip pucker instead of relying exclusively on their pivot to ascend (Sheetz, Quirks of the Types).
Joseph Alessi, Lyn Biviano, Arturo Sandoval, and Bill Watrous are some examples of Type IIIA embouchures.
Embouchure Type IIIB
The Type IIIB embouchure is perhaps the most common one, especially among symphonic brass players, and is therefore most frequently described in method books by brass pedagogues who recommend a single embouchure for all students. These players typically don't place the mouthpiece as high as a Type IIIA embouchure or as low as a Type III. The upper lip still predominates inside the mouthpiece cup and this embouchure is therefore classified as a downstream embouchure. The lower teeth of a Type IIIB player is receded beneath the upper teeth on these players and the horn angle is usually slightly lower than a IIIA.
Type IIIB players always utilize Pivot Classification Two, pulling down towards the chin to ascend and pushing up to descend. When a Type IIIB student finds that Pivot Classification One is more efficient this player should be reclassified as a Type IIIA (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, p. 209).
Type IIIB embouchure players tend to have great flexibility and an easier time playing with a darker tone quality, but also have a tendency to become so concerned with a fat sounding lower and middle register that they play with too open an aperture. This results in difficulties playing above a concert D flat above high B flat. Because this type utilizes Pivot Classification Two it is also common for these players to dig the mouthpiece rim into their upper lip, causing swelling and trouble with endurance (Sheetz, Quirks of the Types).
Examples of Type IIIB brass players include Chuck Findley, Rafael Mendez, and Lyn Nicholson.
Embouchure Type IV
Embouchure Types IV and IVA players have lower teeth which recede beneath the upper teeth while their jaw is in their resting position, but since these types place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside the cup than upper lip the air stream is directed at an upward angle, regardless of the position of the jaw while playing or horn angle.
In addition to placing the mouthpiece lower on the lips, Reinhardt's Type IV embouchure plays with the lower jaw quite protruded beyond the upper, in spite of the jaw's natural position. While playing this embouchure type is identical to Reinhardt's Type II embouchure. Due to the protruded position of the lower jaw the horn angle of this embouchure type is very high, sometimes higher than horizontal.
Type IV players almost always utilize Pivot Classification Two, pulling down to ascend and pushing up to descend. There are exceptions, however, so a Pivot Test should always be used to ensure proper instruction. In those exceptions Reinhardt found that the mouthpiece placement was often too low for this player's embouchure (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, p. 210).
It is common for Type IV players to change their horn angle while inhaling and crash the mouthpiece against the lips for initial attacks, similar to the Type IIIB embouchure (Sheetz, Quirks of the Types).
Good examples of Type IV brass players include Wynton Marsalis, Jon Faddis, Doc Severinsen, and Dick Nash, who was a student of Reinhardt's.
Embouchure Type IVA
Type IVA embouchures are identical to Type IV embouchures with a couple of exceptions. Like the Type IV, these players place the mouthpiece with more lower lip inside the mouthpiece and the air stream is directed in an upward direction. Unlike the Type IV embouchure, Type IVA players keep their jaw in a somewhat receded position so that the lower jaw is beneath the upper while playing, resulting in a downward horn angle.
The Type IVA embouchure typically utilizes Pivot Classification Two, pulling down to ascend and pushing up to descend, but there are some deviations to this principle (Reinhardt, Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, 1973, pp. 210-211).
The type IVA embouchure is a very delicate embouchure type, which may be one reason why so many brass method books discourage utilizing this embouchure. When the Type IVA placement is a little wrong the whole embouchure system can often break down completely. Similar to the Type IIIB embouchure, Type IVA players often dig into their upper lip while pivoting down to ascend, causing excessive swelling (Sheetz, Quirks of the Types).
Kai Winding, who studied directly from Reinhardt, was a good example of a Type IVA embouchure, as well as Buddy Childers.
How do you tell which type you are? The safest way is to get someone who knows what he's doing watch you play in a transparent mouthpiece.
Good luck!
Dave W.
_________________
wilktone.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JackD
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 1436
Location: London, England.
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wow, thanks Dave, that was really helpful. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dave
Regular Member
Joined: 31 Jan 2002
Posts: 19
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Man, You nailed me too the wall as a type IVA. I would like to find someone to learn more. Anyone around Ohio out there that can help?
Any rough suggestions on how to succeed with a type 4A set up? Is it possible to change or work against this type 4a? What are the benifits of being type 4a? Does anyone have an encyclapedia to sell or trade for other trumpet manuels or mouthpieces etc...
[ This Message was edited by: dave on 2003-09-26 20:34 ] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FlugelFlyer
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 1450
Location: Illinois
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Remember, Maynard was a IIIB and we know his abilities. Chet Baker looked like a IV yet couldn't play a high C for the life of him I don't think. Wynton is an upstreamer yet has a decent orchestral sound. Chuck Findley plays downstream yet has one of the most cutting upper register sounds out there. Just my thoughts, so why try to work against your embouchure? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6437
Location: AVL|NC|USA
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Excellent response, FlugelFlyer.
I remember when I tried playing like a IV on trumpet after a couple years with Doc, and although a couple factors actually worked, I was defying Mother Nature. Not long after that I had some problems that drove me back to Doc and back to IIIB.
Interesting that I'm a IV on bass trumpet and a IIIB on trumpet, though. I can experience the "advantages" of both worlds . . . and the "disadvantages."
When I'm adhering to my particular physical type, playing "Eutopia" is much more likely to be a place I'll visit . . . when I'm trying to be something I'm not, I end up in playing "Hell."
One last thing: Doc told me that "type-switching" was the surest way for most of us to find ourselves in a playing spin. There are always a few who can get away with it, but they are the exception, not the rule.
Rich
_________________
Puttin’ On The Ritz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
