Lower lip issues

[iantorres]

I have always had issues with my lower lip going up and under my top lip and have always felt this haas affected my endurance. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve this? Should I worry about it?

[trpt.hick]

Tucking the lower lip up and behind the top lip is usually a problem because the mouthpiece pressure is all on the top lip. Loud lip bends usually force the lower lip to pucker outward, forming a nice cushion for the majority of the mouthpiece pressure. This allows the top lip (which is the primary vibrating lip) to operate freely. Tone improves, endurance improves, range improves, power improves. Pedal tones (done correctly) help in the same way, but lip bends are usually an easier place to start.

I suggest downward half-step bends at the forte level, starting on second line G. Do three half notes (G-F#-G) with regular fingerings, then repeat all open. Then, go down a half step (F#-F-F#), and so forth until all the way down to low F-sharp.

When these get really strong and sound about the same with regular fingerings and "bent" fingerings, go to a whole step sequence starting again on second line G: G-F#-F-F#-G, etc. Regular fingerings the first time, and all with the fingering of the first note the second time. Be sure to rest between each sequence.

Series three starts on second line G: G-F#-F-E-F-F#-G, etc.

If interested, I published a little book of bending exercises titled "15 Advanced Embouchure Studies." It works.

David Hickman

[Peter Bond]

I struggled with this myself for my first 20 years of playing, and will respectfully offer another approach.
If the lips overlap, or the bottom lip is rolled over the lower teeth (both very common situations stemming from the overbite most of us have), the result is a dysfunctional (or less-than-optimal) embouchure. This set-up usually relies on mouthpiece pressure for higher notes, which then requires wind power to blow the aperture open, which in turn calls for more pressure. The sound is also compromised (somewhat dull, and strident up high) because only one "reed" is vibrating, not two. Limited endurance, swollen chops, dental pain(!), headaches, blackouts, and other unpleasantness can follow in a kind of negative downward spiral.
Cutting to the chase, there is almost certainly too much "meat" in the mouthpiece, and lip bends without a different set-up are unlikely to solve the problem (If they do, great!).
You will most likely have to set the mouthpiece higher on your bottom lip and probably bring your jaw forward a little to create some support (your top teeth and top lip are probably bearing most of the mouthpiece pressure).
Another way of thinking about it is setting first on the lower lip (a little "too high" or "inside") and using your mouthpiece to draw the lip out from over the bottom teeth. It may feel as though you are playing on the inside of your bottom lip.
Roger Ingram talks about this a little in his book when explaining how some high-note men can get such tremendous volume while using very small mouthpieces. He likens it to the "Einsetzen" technique used by some horn players. Literally "setting in" the bottom lip. Less lips in the mouthpiece. I began experimenting with this and was amazed at the additional ease, range and flexibility it afforded me...even on my 1C!
As always, a good teacher is the best way to go, but in my experience, not many teachers understand these things very well.
Good luck.

[dadbob]

I would also suggest that you check out George Rawlin's explanation of the pencil exercise. You will find it on YouTube. It is not the same as what you normally see regarding the pencil exercise and it addresses the alignment of your top and bottom teeth.
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Bob Edwards
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[trpt.hick]

Everything Peter says is true, but prescribing a new mouthpiece position (or even a direction of it) can result in guesswork and frustration by the player. The exercises I suggested, with the usual trial and error to get really good sound and power on the bends, lead the player in the right direction without thinking too mechanically. Unless the embouchure is horrible, the bends (and later pedal tones) should be able to help find the new and better embouchure. It can the weeks, but well worth it.

DH

[trptdoc]

As an old guy who does mostly big band and quintet work I have played many a job where the chops took a real beating. I found that practicing pedals the next day, especially coming up out of the pedals into the upper range helped to reset the collapse of the lower lip. I have used lip bends for years to do the same also. The "collapse" can become automatic if not dealt with immediately.

[Pops]

What they are telling you is that there are 2 main ways to work on this. Work on learning to not allow the motion that hides the lower lip, or move the lip so it can't hide.

Both work.

I will add 1 more thing to moving the lip so it can't hide.
I like to try a slight lower lip pout before moving the jaw. Moving the jaw requires you to build more jaw strength to hold it and for the people prone to developing TMJ, it can bring on the problem.

When I say slight pout I mean slight. Often just this much - (the length of that dash) is enough to solve the problem.
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[trpt.hick]

I would like to clarify something Pops said about TMJ. I have worked with one of the leading TMJ experts in the nation, working in Scottsdale, who explained to me that a "TMJ problem" is caused by the blowing out (physical damage) of the cartilage lining the lower jaw socket of the skull. This "blow out" can be done over time by constant motion in the joint (such as chewing or grinding of the teeth) or all of a sudden (such as a fall where one hits their chin on a table or floor). Either way, bone against bone hurts a lot.

When trumpet players bring the lower jaw forward (even slightly) to better align the top and bottom teeth, there can NOT be any wear on the cartilage, thus no TMJ deterioration. However, the Masseter muscles (large vertical muscles that run from in front of the ears to the back of the lower jaw) must work to support the weight of the jaw and the mouthpiece pressure since the skull is no longer taking this load. These muscles can become highly fatigued and sore until accustomed to the new work load. Because the pain in these muscles is located near the Temporomandibular Joint (TMJ), it can easily be confused as a TMJ problem.

Dave Hickman

[trptdoc]

The puckered/pout of the lower lip is key to maintaining the ability to cover all registers of the horn. Some speak of the "pointy" feel with the upward support of the chin. Correct use of the pedals has real importance in maintaing this ability over the years. I've know some older pros who lost this flexibility to cover the horn.

I'm not an advocate of pushing the jaw out much as anything that compresses the TM joint chronically can cause degeneration of the bursae and synovial lining and eventually lead to degenerative arthritis of the bone. It can take years to become symptomatic. Malocclusion of the bite, bruxating(grinding teeth) are common causes of TMJ syndrome. You can feel and even hear the roughened surfaces grinding on each other.

That said, Pedals and Lip Bends do create a forward movement of the jaw that seems pretty innocuous.

[trpt.hick]

It is my opinion that pedals and lip bends do not cause the jaw to move forward UNLESS the front teeth need to be aligned better, in the case of a large overbite.

[McVouty]

I had suffered from this very problem throughout a large part of my playing career - large overbite , large fleshy top lip, hardly any bottom lip. Somehow I'd read and viewed one too many internet video that you should find the easiest position to get a sound and should set with that - in my case pointing down with a relaxed jaw - this didn't work as the mechanics were against me. Nice tone in the staff, rubbish range and stamina. Been through a few disastrous self-diagnosed embouchure changes in my time, but with some guidance from a pro teacher I'm now finally getting to grips with it and playing has become so much easier.

In addition to the lip bends and setting more on the inner flesh of the bottom lip, the other thing that my teacher has had me do is to consciously lift the trumpet bell slightly. This has the effect of forcing me to align the lower teeth and get more even engagement on both lips.

My bottom lip has now developed in strength and I find things are progressing quite nicely on all fronts now though I have had to unpick some of my playing and go back to basics to make sure the foundations are working.

If you do decide to make embouchure change I'd advise finding a teacher who understands these things. I didn't and spent many a year out in the wilderness.

[danduncan]

+1 for bending notes. I've found it to be very useful, although I generally don't do it very loud. As a "high note player," I spend a LOT of time practicing the low range - including bending notes..
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