Embouchure questions?

[emaginethat]

Hi I have been trumpet for a while now, I feel like I have not been improving at all. When I ascend higher past a middle C my notes sound airy and start to crack and fall apart. I also have trouble playing in the staff, so now I believe all this time it has been my embouchure that's been holding me back and it's also uncomfortable to my lips. I don't know if it's my mouthpiece, or it's just I have been playing trumpet the wrong way this whole time, but here's a link to pictures of how I have been playing.
How I have been playing all along:


Suggested embouchure, but I can't even buzz when I play this, only air comes out.

[razeontherock]

Hi, and welcome to TH!

Just to clarify what we're looking at, the bottom set of pictures you have rolled your lower lip under your top lip a bit? Trying to play that way per teacher's suggestion, you just can't do it?

[emaginethat]

Yeah my band director told me that I play with too much bottom lip, and in the bottom set of pictures I try to say the letter M and my embouchure looks thinner, and it does look similar to the trumpet professional players embochures. But it's just I can't play clear notes, but my director told me that I will have to hold notes out for a long time, until my lips get used to the change. It's just I really don't want to have to start all over, but if this change is a better embouchure then I would.

[horntooter]

I would say that deliberately changing your embouchure is almost never the right thing to do. I'm not sure what you mean by "middle C", but usually that is the C below the staff. If that is really your breaking point, then maybe an embouchure change isn't that big of a deal since you wouldn't be able to play anything without it anyway. If it means something else, I'd really try to work with what you have to improve first and foremost.

I would find a real teacher, not a band director. I was in the same situation as you once. A band director stupidly tried to get me to change my embouchure, and it really messed me up for a while (yes the band director's main instrument was trumpet, but clearly he had no idea what he was doing). Then I found a teacher who knew how to play trumpet, and he had me squared away with the original embouchure in no time. I can now play well above and well below anything I've ever been asked to play with endurance lasting well beyond what I need.

Place the mouthpiece where it is comfortable, and forget about it. Do exercises to improve your air (intake and exhale). Do exercises that will subconsciously, incrementally improve your embouchure without your conscious manipulation. You will build a strong foundation. A strong foundation will not be randomly found by randomly changing lips or mouthpiece placement.

What are these exercises? Well it depends on your current playing ability, but the most important in my opinion is flexibility studies. You must be playing these every day with the correct goals and attitude.

[cheiden]

A lot of folks do better with more of their lips more inside the piece like your later pics. But there certainly are players that do fine "on the red". I'd also recommend seeking out a consultation with a pro before trying to make such a big change.

Just out of curiosity, what size mouthpiece are you playing? Have you tried different ones?
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[emaginethat]

It's just I believe that my embouchure is the problem because I have been playing trumpet for almost a year, and I can play above the staff, well I can but it's not consistent and it takes a lot to do it, and pressure. And I can not play for a long time without my embouchure starting to hurt. And I hear all the time that pressure is not the key, but I play on a Bach 7c, and I feel like it's too small for my lips because I have thick lips but I was told that it doesn't matter what kind of mouthpiece that you play on.

[cheiden]

Sure there are guys with thick lips that play smaller pieces but that doesn't mean it's going to work for you. Wouldn't hurt to try a 3C or a 1.5C and see if that doesn't make things easier for you. FWIW I think it's easier to try different mouthpiece diameters using Yamaha pieces instead of Bach because the Yamaha pieces are more uniform between sizes. Your Bach 7C is probably closest to the Yamaha 11C4 or 11C4. Going up to 12 through 16 changes little other than the diameter. With Bach pieces changing diameter usually changes a whole bunch of other parameters that makes evaluating the size change harder.

And for the record, after just a year of playing not everybody can play much above the staff. And the key to avoiding pressure is to have a good fundamentals routine that helps you develop the other things you need to to do to avoid resorting to pressure.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[razeontherock]

[razeontherock]

ALSO: if you're knowingly using more mouthpiece pressure against your face to play higher, you are relying on STRAIN. That's a sure way to cause yourself problems.

Tons of great reading on TH, but the very best thing on here for you now, often stated, is GET THE BEST TEACHER YOU CAN AFFORD. (And ditto cheiden's comments on mpcs)

[roynj]

It's hard to say looking just placement alone, looks ok to me. You may be overblowing as you ascend and this causes the lips to separate more (which leads to more pressure and more overblowing).

[Billy B]

I would have to say the position of your lips is not a problem. My definition of embouchure is probably different than most; in fact I don't even use the term. I prefer "playing system" which entails lips, facial muscles, breathing apparatus, and most importantly mental concept of sound.

For one month try this; Focus entirely on the good aspects of your trumpet playing and completely ignore the problems.

Also, I have seen many problems caused by well meaning band directors.

PM me with your location and I will try to find some expert help for you.
_________________
Bill Bergren

[Bluesy]

1. Do NOT switch mouthpieces.
2. Raise the MP a little on your lips if it's still comfortable and you can blow straight down the drill hole into the trumpet. Forget blowing up, down, sideways, whatever.
3. "Cracking" and sizzling notes indicate terminal fatigue. I infer from that that you are not playing long tones, of if you are, that you're not devoting enough time and careful thought to them, or are skipping them.
4. Miles Davis had thick lips and played his entire career on a small Heim mouthpiece. I own a Heim 1 and a Heim 2 and believe me they are as small as a Bach 7C if not a bit smaller at the rim.
5. If you are already devoting 20 minutes a day on long tones, add the John Faddis range-building exercises to your long tone time every other day only. (And yes, it's "John" on this page of exercises, which I cannot seem to give you a link to, dammit!)
6. Since I can't seem to post a link to the page, here's the drill; play ascending major half-note triads, holding the last (highest) note until your lungful is gone; FAC, F#A#C#, GBD, etc. Remember! Only every other day.
7. And let the highest triad you can play be where you stop for a few days, until it seems comfortable and that you can try the next higher one.
8. Never, but never, play past the point of fatigue!

Bluesy
_________________
Finally Beiderbecke took out a silver cornet. He put it to his lips and blew a phrase. The sound came out like a girl saying ‘yes.’. . . . .Eddie Condon/

[dstdenis]

I suggest you give Phyllis Stork a call (888.287.8675). She's a mouthpiece expert and can discuss playing issues. These photos would give her some of the info she uses to help match players with mouthpieces.

Getting a different mouthpiece wouldn't magically fix everything, but trying to make the wrong mouthpiece work sure can make things more difficult. I know this from personal experience. Phyllis was very helpful to me.

Good luck!
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[perspective]

[quote="horntooter"]I would say that deliberately changing your embouchure is almost never the right thing to do. I'm not sure what you mean by "middle C", but usually that is the C below the staff. If that is really your breaking point, then maybe an embouchure change isn't that big of a deal since you wouldn't be able to play anything without it anyway. If it means something else, I'd really try to work with what you have to improve first and foremost.

If middle C is the one below the staff then where is low C ? Down in the pedals ? No, on a Bb trumpet, middle C is in the 3rd space, high C is the second line above the staff and low C is the first line below the staff. Makes sense, don't it ? So, I guess it is 3rd space you are referring to.

I would suggest then, as others have said, to roll the lips in more as you ascend, getting more of the facial skin within the cup. You will also need to pump a little more air into the horn in order to overcome the resistance this will have on the flow to get a buzz going - don't forget to pull the stomach muscles in order to create air compression. Try it with just the mpc or just buzz the lips. It will come eventually - devote 1/2 hour day to just that.
Good luck.

[cheiden]

To the OP, Greg Spence has some free internet videos and I seem to recall that some talk about basic embouchure formation. If I'm right his approach will likely lead you to keep you embouchure more similar to your current setup rather than one that you've already told us doesn't work.
Here's a link...
http://www.mysterytomastery.com/videos/
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[razeontherock]

Well, 8 responders, and 9 different opinions. Welcome to TH!

Although I will say if Billy B can hook you up with someone local to you, that'd be a good bet. I mean, with a last name like Berggren, what's not to trust?

(That's the spelling of my last name, his is the same but w/o the double g)

[crzytptman]

[horntooter]

[emaginethat]

I refer to the Cs, C below the staff low C. C in the staff middle C, and the C above the staff high C. But if I am wrong thanks for educating me, but I will try to post a video of me playing a scale so you all can get a visual of how I play and what might actually be the problem.

[emaginethat]

And I live in Nashville, TN so if you guys know anyone in that location then Pm their information please. I tried takelessons.com but it's expensive, and I think I need a teacher in person.