"7 in 7 exercise" Claude Gordon?

ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:58 am Post subject: "7 in 7 exercise" Claude Gordon?

Hey CG cats - pardon my shorthand as I am on my BlackBerry. I had a question about the origin of a trumpet exercise. Awhile back I read about an exercise on another trumpet board called "7 in 7". The way this exercise is described is that you start on open posotion and do lip slurs from the lowest to highest note you can play cleanly and softly - you do this up and down in 8th notes for 1 minute. Then you move right to the 123 position and do the same - going chromatically up to the 2 position. So you are doing the 7 valve combinations in 7 minutes - hence the name '7 in 7'.

Several players have referenced this exercise as originally coming from CG but when I research this, I can't find any info. I don't have all the CG books and never studied with him personally, so it occured to me to ask here in this forum if there is any truth to this exercise being from CG. Thanks and all the best. Lex
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trumpetplanet · Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject:

Good question Lex, I did a bit of searching around myself after you told me about it and couldn't find it in any of my CG books...

Also... I think I may have just caught a change in my personality. 6 months ago I would never have admitted owning the Systematic Approach on TH!!

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John Mohan · Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject:

The exercise you describe does not appear in any of the books Claude wrote, nor is it among the many handwritten exercises he assigned me during my time studying with him from January 1979 until shortly before his death in 1996.

Perhaps it was something he used earlier in his teaching career and if so, someone from that era might chime in. That said, this doesn't sound to me like an exercise Claude would assign - and if he did it would only be to a very advanced student.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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ljazztrm · Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:19 pm Post subject:

Thanks John - This is good to know because I am passing this on to students and colleagues who ask me about efficient approaches for physical development. The exercise in the form I described is impractical to me - to go as high and low as I can. It's what made me first research to see if CG really came up with this. My variation is to do two octaves on each position (i.e. - on '0' position I go from low C to high C and back) and it has definitely become one of my most powerfully effective exercises for continued development in the areas of efficiency, endurance, range, and consistency of uniform sound throughout the range of the horn. Yeah, maybe someone else will chime in with more background if indeed it has any association to CG. Best, Lex
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EBjazz · Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject:

You may be talking about glissandos. I demo them in video 2 on this page:
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/tongue-level-and-air/

Claude did them up to double C.

Eb
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ljazztrm · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:24 am Post subject:

Hey Eric, I figured out a good way to describe it. It's like taking Irons Group 21 and starting on low C and going to high C and back down (at least the way I do it) and repeating it for a minute - then to the 123 combination. Just 8th notes at moderate speed quietly. To do this for 7 minutes I really have to focus on efficiency and air support. Best, Lex
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

EBjazz · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:03 am Post subject:

Not a Claude exercise. He never did anything that was timed. Although we did do the Smith Flexes 10x each.

Eb
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ljazztrm · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:47 am Post subject:

Thnx Eric. Good to know. Looks like this exercise is someone else's creation. Maybe it was thouught to be CG because of all his lip slur/tongue level work.
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Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

trumpetplanet · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:10 pm Post subject:

I say claim it as your own Lex!!

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Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

ljazztrm · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject:

Cha! Actually, it's a user on the trumpetmaster named markie (now goes by dr.mark). There's a couple of good threads on it. But he says go as high and low as you can w a good sound. I think my variation is more effective. My experience is all the chops u need can be built in the fundamental register from low f# to high C and there's less chance of manipulation. Sure you need to have the muscle memory for the higher range - but that doesn't take too long to acquire. Just play music up there. If ur a jazz player, you're set!

Ps - I know this is the CG forum - and I'm not a big pedal fan, but I think a lot of other things CG taught are really excellent. I love how he uses the best fundamental books in his routine. (ie - Clarke, schloss, irons) in addition to his own routines. I also got great benefit in fundamentals in high school from using bill knevitt's (a long time CG student) books.
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

John Mohan · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject:

Well, you're sure welcome here anytime Lex!

Cheers,

John

ljazztrm · Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:21 pm Post subject:

Thanks man!

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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com

Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject:

That sounds a little like an exercise I have in my files from John Clyman. Clyman was a top studio trumpet player, friend of Claude's and taught at California State University Northridge a couple years before I got there. There were some crazy stories about Clyman and the things he made students do and things said that were sort of crass at times. But, the dude was known for a being a bold personality and player.

I believe I have the handwritten stuff of Clyman scanned and in my things now. I have an ever growing collection of material.

Some of the Clyman stuff has ideas similar to the "elevator" exercises that Claude has in his SA book on Part II of Lessons 7 and 8. "Elevator" is meant in reference to the elevator on the tail of an airplane.
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mcgovnor · Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:18 pm Post subject: Claude

CG fashioned the tongue level exercises after Irons..but CG does not use or reference Irons or Schlossberg in the SA. The books he does reference are Arban, St. Jacome, Walter M Smith, Clarke Technical and Characteristic Studies, Charles Colin Lip Flexibilites....he improved upon the source of a formulated approach to pedal tone practice..The father of Raphel Mendez..who guided Maggio. Both Mendez and Maggio were injured badly.If one practices in the manner described by CG, adding a few other things:)....the result is an even sound and ability to control the horn throughout the range.It isn't a " high note system"....it is a way to playing the horn correctly..and his main point revolves around the way one develops his air stream.

Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject:

Systematic Approach wasn't ever meant to be the end all of books to use. One of the coolest things about being a student of Claude was to learn how to creatively use various method books in a systematic way, step by step through material that complimented and balanced each other.

I recently scanned all of my library and the stack of music is twelve feet tall and over 40,000 or maybe 50,000 pages. So, Systematic Approach and the books referenced there are definitely a small sample of the most significant books to start with like St. Jacome and Arban and the various flexibility books and of course Clarke's Technical Studies. Yet they are all done with a plan that isn't rushed just to get through it.

As far as flexibility and the books just mentioned, I would add Del Staigers Lip Flexibility book. Take a look at that and compare it to Claude's Daily Trumpet Routines on lessons 14, 15 and 16 in the first section of DTR. Claude creatively took a pattern from Staigers' book and elaborated on it with more models and different intervals. But, you can tell where it came from.

Claude's Velocity Studies book is meant to come after Systematic Approach and it is taken from the Hannon Piano Studies, starting scale patterns on a pedal C and working up chromatically through every key as high as possible.

I remember Claude taking several students through a lip flexibility book by a trombone player named Pedro Lozano. And, then Claude took the Theick Method and had us transpose it.

It was never ending and that's why I kept studying. I wanted to see where he would go next. It was always fun and exciting and rewarding work.

Years ago when Harry Kim and I first talked about Claude the one remark Harry kept saying was how he really learn how to practice when studying with Claude. You learned to love it and appreciate it. If you were lazy you wouldn't last long.

When I was still in high school my mom used to drive me over 100 miles to lessons with Claude and at one point my grades were not great. I was in advanced classes and my mom thought she would tell Claude to not give me so much to practice. Then, it just so happened that Claude started several new things and I went from 3 to 4.5 hours of practice a day to get through all the stuff. My mom never tried to tell Claude to do anything again. I would get up at 5am do my two paper routes and then practice an hour before school, and come home and practice some more, eat dinner, practice some more, do a little home work and practice some more and sometimes be up until midnight or later. I loved it and still do. Thankfully, my wife doesn't care about practicing that late and our daughter has her room right next to my studio and sleeps through me playing Systematic Approach at midnight or later.

Jeff
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ljazztrm · Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:01 am Post subject:

Hey cats - I've been getting a few pm's from guys about what I posted here. I've been playing quite a lot since a little kid and, sometimes, things that seem obvious to me, aren't always to everyone. Yes, this is a challenging exercise for sure, although very simple in its format. I would recommend making sure you can play the Irons book smoothly and easily before attempting it. When you have a good command over Groups 21 and 22 and can play it exactly as he describes in the book, then would be a good time to introduce the "7 in 7" exercise.

Also, as a side note, there is another very good book by a Japanese CG student that the horn trader carries called 'Flex Tongue Build' written by Masashi Sugiyama which is another excellent lip flexibility book offering some variations from the norm - really set up nicely. Also James Ackley has a very extensive lip slurring book out as well that is really excellent. This in addition to all the other mainstream ones we know about. Best, Lex
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
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John Mohan · Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:39 am Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:44 am Post subject:

EBjazz · Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:44 am Post subject:

I have a book "Flex On The Move" that offers some new slants on flexibility:
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/flex-on-the-move/

Eb
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http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
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Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:58 am Post subject:

I sell Masashi's books on my site too. That Flex Tongue Build is kind of like an expanded version of Walter Smith's Lip Flexibility Studies and Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibility Studies combined. I've gone through it myself and used it with a few students.

Another flexibility book I sell and have personally used parts of is another trombone book called "Daily Lip and Tongue Exercises" by Ernst Gaetke. I sell that too, but need to list it on my site. The way I came across that book was when I was first hired at Anderson University and the instrumental music chairman decided to take lessons with me for a year to learn about Claude Gordon. He's a trombone player and was taking the lessons on trumpet as a beginner. He showed me that book as I was taking him through various things. I found it interesting because the patterns are a little different than other things.

For anyone that's interested it can be useful to make a complete list of all the possible types of exercises that exist for trumpet (or brass instruments) and group them in major and sub categories, then take the list of the Seven Items and see how the two lists lineup.

For example, I would group Smith and Irons all together under Tongue Level because they move around with the same fingering (or slide position). But, things like Arban p. 125 (older edition), St Jacome p. 157, and Schlossberg are all more interval based with changing valves, yet still Tongue Level.

Once you start seeing how the Seven Items cover everything then it becomes easier to understand why there are some great players that are accomplished players yet not at the same level in their teaching. To teach something well you often need to step back with bigger perspective and break things down into smaller steps.

I often go to clinics with some great players or get private students from some very well known players and what is usually missing is the patience to take things slower and walk through more steps from point A to B.

In Los Angeles I had a fantastic martial arts teacher named Ken Nagayama and he once explained fundamentals in a way similar to Claude. Master Nagayama said that if you are building a two story building you would build a more solid foundation. But, if you started and left out nails in the structure then it would become apparent when the second floor went up that the entire structure was shaky. Then, you will spend lots more time hunting for the things you missed than if you would have done it well from the start.

I think it's also worth noting that some of the greatest players with long lasting careers have not had an easy time and had to work through things. When you hear of someone loosing their "lip" or "chops" we rarely hear of others that had to work through various big challenges and keep it a secret.

The ones with the really long careers usually always have a consistent practice routine of fundamentals that in some form hits the Seven Items.

One of the coolest experiences for me was driving to church with Harry Kim and Susan Slaughter in 2010 right after my first conference. Susan had just retired from a long career as principal trumpet of the St. Louis Symphony because she felt she wasn't at the level she expected of herself. But, she was asking Harry about how to play "funk" and Harry was asking Susan about piccolo trumpets and orchestral playing. Both, also shared some personal stories about what some might consider unfair disappointments and how God had a bigger plan that became clearer later. They both love the trumpet and their learning is still not over and they are humble enough to admit it.

Sorry for the long tangent. This is hopefully all related to the original post.
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