Callet vs. MF embouchure

[falado]

Hi, A and P or A&P= anatomy and physiology. Of course, you probably knew that. I tried TCE, spoke with Mr. Called a few years ago, couldn't get it to work. SA works for me and I acknowledge we are all different. I think in some ways the argument is about the same things, but just put differently. Years ago I knew 2 Navy trumpet players who were studying with Mr. Called, as far as I know, 1 has dropped TCE. I don't know about the other. Keep up the good fight John.
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FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[falado]

Hi, back again, had to go. What I am trying to say is after a lot of reading, Roger Ingrams book, Claude Gordon's books, Jerry Callet's book, Charles Colin, John Lynch, etc., and practice, I think that in nature things need to line up or happen in a correct physical way, air, lungs, muscle, muscle, lips, and BRAIN. We practice and train ourselves to do these things correctly to chase those high notes. If we don't or manipulate things in an unnatural way, we can hurt ourselves. John uses what he has learned from Mr. Gordon and I can see the physisiology in what he is trying to convey. So, we may not all use or agree on the same approach, but unless we can get all these things to work together and to make the tissue in the aperture to vibrate the right amount per second, DHC or other high notes just don't happen.
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[tptguy]

I studied with Don Reinhardt; Jerry never did. You could call Jerry to find out whom he studied with. I remember him naming a lot of biggies of his era, but I don't recall the specifics. Regardless, all of his teachers taught him the same thing all my teachers taught me me - lip to lip compression. No one ever suggested another option. I suspect most of them knew of no other options. That's the point we are trying to make.

[chapahi]

In my lesson with Jerry in Staten Island he looked at my teeth and said I should angle the horn down and place the mouthpiece one third on top, two thirds on the bottom. Then he was adament about the lips rolling in and showed me the gallery of photos featuring Roy Eldridge, Charlie Shavers, Cat Anderson, Harry James, etc. and pointed out all of them rolled in.

Now this gentleman talks about Maynard's embouchure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZDTi2-bCMk&list=PL37XVz3eEjez4k6NpPKNgcKzLdU67Npn0


Jerry's roll in makes a tighter compact sound while the Maynard "pooch" gets a fat, lively, Mariacchi-like tone.

Another difference seems to do with the mouthpiece. I understand Maynard's mouthpiece has a monster throat while Jerry's SC series are all 29's.

The concepts seem quite different with strong examples on both sides. Air moving vs. compression.
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Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super

[trumpetplanet]

Well there's a long thread about the throat sizes here if you want to get into that. http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=137101

The effect of a larger throat on the shallow V-cup is quite different because the cup compresses the air so much.

But yeah... this thread got pretty off topic. Literally the only reason it exists is because at some point in history both Jerry and Lynn Nicholson have used the word 'unfurl' to describe a lip movement.
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[rothman]

[razeontherock]

[tptguy]

None of Reinhardt's tongue types resemble Jerry's use. As Raz indicates, DSR was 100% dogmatically against even a start towards it. I originally tongued much like Jerry teaches. Reinhardt stopped me. Unfortunately, the change was a disaster for me. Thankfully I was introduced to Jerry during the worst of my struggles and he got me back on track.

Nothing against anyone that wants to spend their time working on the Reinhardt approach. But it's important to note that the two systems can never arrive at the same point. FWIW, the Reinhardt students I know that learned to play well all broke the same rule I did (perhaps ask Chris about his tongue). Unfortunately, I waited far too long before I broke the rule.

BTW - It's equally important to realize that the Claude Gordon approach of arching the tongue also prohibits MSC development. This time it's not about dogma. This one is just physics - the tongue can't go in two different directions at the same time. And 1 lesson with Jerry should easily make clear the big difference - to the ears.

[digs]

Been a long time since I chimed in on the discussion here.

Over the past 6 months I experimented with more of an unfurling. I had been struggling with musical playing in the lower register with my SC3 and SC3s.

I moved to a SC4, but was not liking the feel at the time. So I grabbed a few Yamaha pieces, the Shew Jazz, Shew lead, and Vizzutti. Had some success with the Jazz (like a 3c) but found myself unfurling a bit to fit the bigger piece, my chin started flattening over a period of time, and the tongue was acting more like KTM and Tongue arch, not really forward. I was playing okay, but endurance was suffering, as was higher register as I got fatigued.

So, to summarize, bigger mouthpiece, tongue not very forward, chin flattening like Farkas, lower to mid register musical playing pretty good but high register and endurance suffering...

So I got out my old 10.5c, and the SC4 a few weeks ago. Both of those were feeling and working better than the Shew Jazz. But the tongue still wasn't forward, etc.

Last week I tried the SC3 and SC3s. Above the staff they sounded good, but with the unfurling and flatter chin and tongue not forward they would start to shut down when I got a little swelling going after a few minutes.

Then yesterday, I told myself I was going to relax that chin and not flatten it. I had firmed it up over this time to improve accuracy (I thought). So, I relaxed the chin, used the 10.5c, and I could tell the tongue was able to naturally be more forward this way. But I was careful to not overthink it and not overdue the forward tongue in the staff. Result was very good. Musical, accurate, easy feel, and moving above the staff felt good.

Then I stuck the SC4 in. Sounded and felt really good.

Then the SC3s. Again, felt good, sounded good. Same with the SC3. Went back to the 10.5c, still worked well...

Today I started fresh the same way. Excellent results again with all 4 pieces. Endurance way improved. Sound and movement through the registers was better than any time over the last 6 months. High register was good.

So, here is what I think started me down the wrong path months ago: in the low register I was overdoing the forward tongue. The bigger pieces and unfurling and flatter chin all forced the tongue back, which sort of fixed my "problem"' but of course led to the other challenges of endurance, range, inability to play the smaller pieces.

Just wanted to share my journey, partly so I don't forget what I experienced. Hopefully it helps someone else. The tongue needs to be forward for MSC to happen, but you can overdo it... Especially in the staff.

[trumpetplanet]

I'm pretty sure I don't agree with your analogy there. My tongue position doesn't change at all between registers - and this is important. The only way I have found to improve tough stuff, whether it be low notes or multiple tonguing or whatever, has been slow careful practise. Devoting 15 minutes a day to a problem I will see improvement in a few days and usually a solution in a month. That's just how it works.
You're also unlikely to develop any consistency at all if you're going to a practise session with the intention of using 4 different mouthpieces. It's takes a few weeks to really settle into any mouthpiece and start to develop with it so make a decision and just accept that when things go wrong the fault is not in the equipment.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[deejaymushone]

Funnier thing is that Keep Em Separated is not even written by The Offspring ! The chord progression, key, main/fundamental guitar riff heard throughout the song, as well as the tempo, are all actually an older song from the 80's called Panty Raid, written and performed by Murphy's Law.....I actually was the trumpet player on tour w/ Murphy's Law WHILE Keep Em Separated was a hit on the charts, and anywhere we were in the country, if we turned on the radio in the van, what sounded like the opening song of our set every night WAS ACTUALLY THE OFFSPRING lol ?!?!

A few years later, I was on tour in Europe w/ my old band The Slackers (who were signed to Hell-Cat at the time, an off-shoot of Off-Spring's label Epitaph) playing at the Pukellpop festival in Belgium, and who do I run into but the leader of the Offspring ! Well - of course I had to relate this story to him - boy did he look surprised (and nervous)....

: )

[Trumpetingbynurture]

[trumpetplanet]

How long ago was this lesson?

Jerry has written about the lips moving inwards to grip the tongue as you ascend, but I wasn't familiar with him promoting the idea of playing rolled in...

I'm sure Bahb Civiletti wouldn't teach someone to do that. He said to me that he generally wouldn't change someone's embouchure unless it was just wrong. It's just about the using the tongue properly and compressing the air.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[deejaymushone]

Also, Lynn does not play with his toungue thru his teeth ; in addition - Lynn is using a HUGE amount of air - Jerome hardly uses any ....

[trumpetplanet]

Yeah, that's why I regretted the post that sparked this thread immediately after posting it.

It's just because one could be mistaken if they were to read the original Trumpet Yoga book (the one with the blue cover, not the Charles Collins, 1986 second edition) that Jerry was talking about a very similar thing:

i.e. unfurl the lips, maintain this feel in all registers, blow hard.

In that book (written in the 70s), Jerry doesn't talk about using less air as you ascend or compressing air as in the Trumpet Secrets book.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[Mr.Hollywood]

[trumpetplanet]

[deejaymushone]

[trumpetplanet]

Oh I'm sure he still uses more!
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[shakuhachi]

interesting....

I have had some email conversations with Lynn, bought his "Got High Notes?", his XPiece mouthpiece with reversable rim, his Montette mouthpiece from the Video and got a Skype lesson with him some time ago etc....

I was a strict fan of the MF mouthpiece design and the extremest was his convex Jet-Tone. I still find this design ingenious when it comes to a most relaxed ambouchure which enables one even after taking a long break to take the horn again and play from scratch....

I know from Lynn that he anchors his tongue behind the lower teeth and yes he advocates the superiotity of air usage and compressing with the abs/diaphragm. He does not advocate lip or tongue compression.

That said he and Maynard used big mouthpiece throats/bores as well.
The biggest bore you can get is Lynn's reversable rim - only a rim!

I never got that sound on that rim Lynn was providing....

I found the MF mouthpiece design prefering a bright lead sound and observed since playing on a cornet with cookie cutter rims which are straight the opposite to the MF design that here you get a more mellow sound - OK that is a truism.

Because of my cornet experience I looked for a Bach 12B like rim I lately used on cornet for using on trumpet with a shallow cup: I found the Civiletti TCM3 Custom Piece and the TCE approach again. I still have to work hard to leave the tongue forward on each note I Play but it developes slowly. The rim is similar to my Mt Vernon 12B and narrow around .600 inches id I was accustomed over years playing MF pieces - I am not a professional trumpeter but an analytical guy. My big challenge is to change from a very high to a low alpha angle which offers more sound colours. I discovered when comparing TCE3 with the Callet X5 again: the X5 offers a brighter MF like sound because of the rounder inner rim contour and of course - the bores of both are much narrower than the MF designs as well.

And yes: TCE needs much less air and a great tongue compression which first does not deliver a good sound for long tones (attacks are fine from the beginning!) but which improves when one gets the tongue trained enough in that forward position. For me it delivers the greatest consistency in trumpet playing after trying so many other approaches out there: you get a tool offering more range from scratch and you "only" have to work seriously on sound - isn`t that what we all strive for?

Anyway: as I was playing japanese bamboo flutes for years I discovered this forward tongue technique when changing from normal Shakuhachi size to the huge Kyotaku size flutes: you have to cover a greater hole on the mouthside to get a seal and to direct the air stream on the small blowing edge. Here you need to put your tip of the tongue between lower lip and lower teeth as well....so for me this currently seems to be the right direction.