Jumping in

[epoustoufle]

Hello tongue people! So I've decided I'm going to give this thing a whirl. This website is a great resource plus the Youtube videos of course.

In fact, I've been dabbling for a week now. Initial results were terrible but with 20 minutes a day I've started to get that "pop" on the repeated staccato notes. I've only got low G to middle G at the moment, not gonna strain anything here Plus pedals. Is that notmal? A pedal C in tune with a clear tone?!

It's a hopeful start - I hope. Don't get me wrong, I sound like a total beginner, but when I read descriptions that others post in response to questions it seems the tongue and the lips are in the right place.

[trumpetplanet]

Looking at the older posts in the subforum was extremely helpful when I started the move to Superchops. In the past I made some videos about my progress, but I'm not sure if I left them public.
Those of us who still use this forum would be happy to answer any questions you have so just fire away.

'Getting the pop' shouldn't be a gradual process. If you have mastered the spit buzz then doing exactly that motion into the trumpet will produce a clean, clear articulation. Do you have the means to post a video or sound clip of yourself playing?

The pedal notes you're aiming for start two octaves below bottom C. It's not the normal pedal C that many people work on being able to play.

Do you have any instructional materials/books from Jerome Callet?
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[tptguy]

My one big recommendation is take a couple of lessons with Jerry. In person if you can, but by phone is not a bad sub. You can pick up tips on the internet, but from my experience, you are just as likely to be steered in a wrong direction. Even 1 lesson with Jerry will start to open your sound as well as your ears.

I'd even suggest that anyone who hasn't had a lesson with Jerry in the last 2 months should spring for new one. He has made huge progress very recently that makes MSC much easier and faster to attain. The positioning of the tongue and application of the all-important grip is clearer and easier than ever.

Best to all, Kyle

[trumpetplanet]

[epoustoufle]

Thanks for you replies, Rich, Kyle. I don't have any material other than the youtube videos and pictures posted online. From what I've read on this forum these can be confusing - and I agree, they are! However the DVD really hammers in the sound concept of those staccato notes and that is how I'm determining progress.

I'm not going to post a video just yet. It's too raw - and you couldn't handle that Today I spent 30 minutes trying to figure out if the buzz is coming from lip-lip or top lip-tongue... and I'm still not sure. I read that it has to be top lip-tongue so I was concerned to get it right.

I seem to be developing a comfortable embouchure where I set the tip of the tongue on the inside/top of the bottom teeth and kind of push/curl the tongue forward and up behind the top teeth ("bevel" perhaps). The lips are completely without tension. Then I gently touch the lips together and "hiss" from between the tongue and the top teeth.

The sound is good on staccato notes but fades fast if I try to sustain. Still, it is improving day to day. I've also got a middle C now

[trumpetplanet]

Just keep at it. I used to feel like I was taking one step forward and two back for a few months. I was very frustrating.

It also took me a while before I would play this way in front of other people.
I've never had anything but praise about the rock solid articulation this technique gives me. Now I don't know what I was worried about!

What kind of gear are you using? Getting the right type of mouthpiece will really accelerate your learning of this way of playing.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[epoustoufle]

Thanks for the encouragement! Today was more of a 2 steps back kind of a day... everything seems right but the noise was so so wrong. Probably just need a rest - I did 2 practice sessions yesterday. Not ready for that.

I have been noticing the threads about the SC mouthpieces. I'm a recovering mpc-aholic so I have to be careful with this one. I'm on a Schilke 17, similar to the Bach 1.25... not the recommended gear on this forum for sure.

The SC8 would be in my territory and there's a nice picture here.

http://callettrumpets.com/images/Callet_SC8_1.jpg

It looks alright, not particularly shallow. Do you know the equivalent shallowness in Bach or Schilke numbers? I'm a little concerned about sounding like a lead trumpet on the 2nd parts in orchestra.

[oxleyk]

While the SC8 specs say it's close to a 1.5C to me it feels MUCH larger because of the rim profile. You might want to try an SC4 but even that feels large to me.

Kent

[trumpetplanet]

Ok, first things first. MSC/TCE works best with small mouthpieces. Compared to any Bach mouthpiece the SC series are shallow. Bach really didn't know what the word shallow even means compared to modern trumpet equipment. A better way to think of it is that this cup is very efficient, and it will teach you to play properly.

The SC8 is one of the biggest that he's ever designed in terms of internal diameter - you'll have to ask Kyle if he's played and/or liked that. For me, making a downsize to a SC4 really helped me to learn how MSC/TCE works. I have downsized more since then.

In terms of sound - learning this technique will teach you to hear things differently. Most importantly the terms you use to describe sound will change... but you need to realise from the off that sounding like a lead trumpet is about how you play, not what equipment you use to make it happen.
I play on a smaller mouthpiece than I would ever have believed possible in the past and I make a clean, projected sound with great articulation - this is what a trumpet is supposed to sound like.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[epoustoufle]

A little update: things are moving along but I'm having a little bit of confusion. I'm not sure what to do with my bottom lip - it can either lie flat against the front of the tongue or it can curl against the front of the tongue or it can lie flat beneath the tongue. All seem to work equally well/badly...

The former is more relaxed and natural feeling to me, and I would go with it except that the buzz feels more like it's lip-on-lip, which is wrong from what I understand.

Videos and diagrams of superchops/TCE can support any of these options for the bottom lip. Should I keep going a while longer and see which way my lip/teeth structure favor?

[trumpetplanet]

I'm reluctant to answer your question directly. Without seeing or hearing you play I can't really imagine what you're saying.

Firstly, it has to be said that you probably need to call Jerome Callet and he will talk you through the set up. I always find these calls helpful and he won't charge you for it either. As I'm in the UK I use skype to phone his landline and it works great.

As a general comment, in my opinion you're making it far too complicated.

This is what I think you need to do to get started.
1) Pin the tip of your tongue to the top of your bottom lip.
2) Make sure that the top of your tongue is pushed up against the cutting edge of your top teeth
3) Bring your top lip down against the top of the tongue
4) Learn to spit buzz with this setup.

When you can spit buzz, do it into a trumpet. Done.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[Jerry]

[tptguy]

<< My one big recommendation is take a couple of lessons with Jerry. In person if you can, but by phone is not a bad sub. >>

He doesn't do Skype, but he's easy to get on the phone. That's not as good as in person, but in experience, it's far better than the decades of in-person lessons I took with other teachers.

[tptguy]

<<This is what I think you need to do to get started.
1) Pin the tip of your tongue to the top of your bottom lip.
2) Make sure that the top of your tongue is pushed up against the cutting edge of your top teeth
3) Bring your top lip down against the top of the tongue
4) Learn to spit buzz with this setup. >>

I would add one important point. Above is pretty much what I was doing with good success in high school before my undergrad and grad teachers sent me down the tubes. Once Jerry got me back to my natural playing style I was just 1 step short, but it's an absolutely essential point.

To move beyond the traditional trumpet ceiling you have to apply and build the lip to tongue grip so central to Jerry's instruction. It's easy to under-do and even easier to over-do so use Jerry's ears to keep you on track. But I can assure you, once you dial in the correct grip the ceiling disappears. And that is awesome!

[epoustoufle]

Thanks Kyle for a timely post. The "pinning" part of step 1 was absent, but now I think I have it working a little better. The mystery of the ice cream lick is also getting a little clearer. Much appreciated.

[epoustoufle]

I'm sure it gets old for you regulars hearing noobs discovering the technique

I keep thinking, once I figure this out I ought to write a(nother) "how to" guide. The diagrams and descrptions can be quite contradictory.

I'm thinking there are many ways to make this work. I have something approaching a settled embouchure now - about 4 weeks in. It seems the key is to figure out a way to get the top lip onto the surface of the tongue. For me that involves pushing the tongue out forwards into the bottom lip - just like the diagrams in Trumpet Secrets - then bringing the top lip down to rest on the tongue.

Whereas there seems another way where you anchor the tip of your tongue on the top of the bottom teeth, then curl the tongue outwards/forwards into the lips. That doesn't work reliably for me.

There are other ways too... whataver this is?
http://www.super-chops.com/pages/forum2014.html

So anyway, apologies for the rambling post. Nothing really interesting to say, just ticking over and doing my staccato scales every day. The F-scale is working about 50% now, C-scale is in the bag

[trumpetplanet]

Hi. Don't worry about it. I used to contemplate this stuff and switch about trying to find what works for a long time. I've also reverted back to a more 'normal' playing more than once.

One time last year I spent three weeks playing through the lessons in a book and not thinking about my tongue, taking deep breaths and thinking about air flow. I think I was also using a 3C mouthpiece with a big throat too. It felt great for a couple weeks but I wasn't playing any gigs or anything. The first gig I had my lip was gone after an hour and I had to pressure and blow my way through the rest of it. The next day I sat down and watched the MSC DVD again, read through Trumpet Secrets and hopefully I'll never mess with my technique again.

I used to get so sick of sounding great and finding it easy one day, then completely losing everything the next but that doesn't happen to me any more.

For me I got a lot of benefit from fixing my warm-up routine. This is what I do: Ansetzen/Einsetzen (slurring down to double pedals) & Einsetzen/Ansetzen (slurring up from double pedals). I then do some octaves, some H.Clarke (I really have to work at my low register every day) and then some simple harmonic slurs and spit attacking scales.
It takes me about 20 minutes and after a 5 minute break I can work on anything I want.
_________________
UK-based professional trumpeter.
Proponent of the Superchops/TCE.

https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
https://tonguecontrolled.info/

[trumpetplanet]

[tptguy]

<<Once I figure this out I ought to write a(nother) "how to" guide. The diagrams and descrptions can be quite contradictory.>>

Most of us have felt that way at one time or another. Frequently it comes from trying to apply a prescription Jerry designed for someone else. Sometimes however, it's merely part of the travel from the old system of arch the tongue, blow harder, pivot the mouthpiece, hope - while hoping no one spots your sound is strained and out of tune. Best we can do is resign ourselves to that non-musical sound or enjoy the journey! 🤔

[Rod Haney]

I recently went to a trumpet thing in West Chester Pa. and met Mr. Callet after I had played most of the trumpets at the show. I used to play well enough to play a little lead in 1968. I then quit until Halloween 2015 when I decided to amuse myself in my retirement. I have experienced some fairly severe heart problems and the 2015 comeback corresponded to a return to better health. Anyway I was looking for a horn that was easy to play but maintained the core that a good trumpet should have. I went to the conference hoping to find that the intervening layoff had improved the breed. I found almost all offerings there to be inferior to either of my 2 Conn 60b's, and by a fair margin. The Stomvi Titan was as good as my 60b but not better. Then I went to the Callet table, and played a Sima, and was instantly interested. I was playing with a Curry 8.5 BC and was playing with good tone, and very in tune partials. The horn also seemed to have very natural slotting and when it did slot it seemed well in tune. I should mention that I have a good ear and can usually hear 15 cents at any note. This horn was spot on. I was staying below the staff simply because I was tired of hearing trying to squeal notes and play out of tune in the environment we were in and didn't want to add to the mess, I was just trying to get the feel of the horn and it was real good. Very easy to move around from low to hi C. Very easy to play and absolutely in tune. Especially at hi - which I am only now starting to be able to plat at FF. Mr Callet came to me and suggested that I try his SC3 mouthpiece, and the same range of notes became even deeper with more focus. I have always played in tune and have never used a slide. I simply didn't learn that way and it never seemed hard to adjust pitch by whatever was needed by lip and it had to be quicker. Right or wrong that's how I did it. One thing I noted was that I was not doing anything to get the pitch with timbre but blow. I was using simple air attack, Mr. Callet noticed this and in about 3 minutes showed me the <for lack of a better term> spit attack and I came out with a strong and perfectly in tune hi g that I could have played for a full minute at least a Forte. I cant tell you what that made me feel like after nearly 48 years of not hearing that note from the end of my horn. I was very impressed with both the horn and the guy. I just ordered a new horn from him and until the last horn I played at the show I thought my 60b was the best horn there. Needless to say I was impressed with the man and his plumbing.
Rod