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Conn Collector
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 Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:19 am Post subject: B & H Imperial cornet bore size? |
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What is the bore size of the 1970's Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet?
I think I read one time that they are a rather tight .453",
but I can't find anything in my Google searches now.
Wondering if it might be good for my playing soft, low songs with a very deep mouthpiece?
For those of us who can't afford a small-bore flugel,
I was thinking of playing "Autumn Leaves" and other such low, slow numbers with the Imperial and an extremely deep cornet mouthjpiece, maybe with a Harmon mute, too.
What would be my results, if one ignores my complete lack of musical talent?
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Conn Collector
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Richard III
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: |
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This brings up a topic I've been struggling with. I like a light flugel sound. Too often I hear flugel played too ponderously. People say dark and smokey. I hear trombone and dull. I would like light and mellow. To this I've tried using different cornets, both large and small bore with different combinations of mouthpieces. I don't really get to the sound I'm looking for. Even using a flugelhorn mouthpiece on a cornet it doesn't quite get there. I even did the mod below with a larger copper bell and it doesn't quite get there. I'm wondering if your idea is the answer. But I would suggest that just the deep mouthpiece is not the answer. I have many Wicks, Yamahas and Currys that are quite deep but the resulting sound is not that light flugel I'm looking for. I'm wondering if a Curry TF in a small bore trumpet might be better. I see part of the problem with the use of the cornet is the small leadpipe does not allow enough of a chamber for the sound to expand. I'm thinking that is part of what sets a flugelhorn apart. So many questions.
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | This brings up a topic I've been struggling with. I like a light flugel sound. Too often I hear flugel played too ponderously. People say dark and smokey. I hear trombone and dull. I would like light and mellow. To this I've tried using different cornets, both large and small bore with different combinations of mouthpieces. I don't really get to the sound I'm looking for. Even using a flugelhorn mouthpiece on a cornet it doesn't quite get there. I even did the mod below with a larger copper bell and it doesn't quite get there. I'm wondering if your idea is the answer. But I would suggest that just the deep mouthpiece is not the answer. I have many Wicks, Yamahas and Currys that are quite deep but the resulting sound is not that light flugel I'm looking for. I'm wondering if a Curry TF in a small bore trumpet might be better. I see part of the problem with the use of the cornet is the small leadpipe does not allow enough of a chamber for the sound to expand. I'm thinking that is part of what sets a flugelhorn apart. So many questions. |
Thank you for that food for thought.
Since I cannot invest the money in an actual small-bore flugel,
if I can find some cheap instrument that will get me only half-way to the sound I want,
I will have to settle for that.
So I need to think about your answer to see if the plan would get me half-way there or not even close.
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Maynard playing "Ole"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUinAhSpCdU
Morris playing "Conn 9a - Double C"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nqb-BOftg&feature=youtu.be
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Bob Stevenson
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:11 am Post subject: |
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The 'problem' is one of bore shape. A flugle horn is essentially that...ie, a horn with long conical section to the bell. The cornet shape is a much shorter and less conical bell section.
The other big difference, and one often overlooked, is the leadpipe shape/length. Cornet has a long tapered leadpipe (my B&H Sovereign has a 14 inch taper) but flugle horn has a straight tube with no taper.
The only 'cornet' that I have heard with a true flugle horn timbre is the 'Wild thing' model based on the benge/Kanstul type cornet. Perhaps not surprisingly, it appears to have a straight (or 'straighter') tube leadpipe!
........ An interesting experiment would be to take an old cornet and replace the leadpipe with an adjustable or demountable one and try different shapes/sections etc....... |
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Conn Collector
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delano
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:46 am Post subject: |
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I tried one once, the version made in the 1930's, and it actually sounded less flugel-like than my Conn 5a and my Conn 76a.
It sounded brighter than my Conn 5a and my Conn 76a.
I have a short opportunity to buy an Imperial cornet, so I need to find out what the bore size is.
_________________
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Maynard playing "Ole"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUinAhSpCdU
Morris playing "Conn 9a - Double C"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nqb-BOftg&feature=youtu.be
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Flugelnut
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:27 am Post subject: |
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On the assumption that my Besson New Standard is basically identical to the B&H Imperial, I measured the 2nd valve slide ID and it's 11.9 mm or .468 inch.
When played quietly with a Wick 4 (no B!) my Besson sounds like what you might be after, even with my natural rather bright sound.
Hope this helps. |
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Louise Finch
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Conn Collector wrote: | Reminder:
I appreciate the additional info being provided.
My main question was about the bore size of the 1970's B and H Imperial cornet.
If anybody knows, let me know. |
Hi
I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet. I thought that mine was from the mid 1960s, but it may be the 1970s. It is in low pitch with a fixed leadpipe and extra slide before it enters the third valve.
i.e. Like this one (which is not mine):
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&oq=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2.1393.10422.0.11101.41.14.3.24.23.0.275.1157.8j3j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.34.1219.VJEX2p6rwH0#imgrc=edAq_Oib4aFbFM%3A
The bore is pretty small, as the diameter of the 2nd slide is considerably smaller than my other cornets. It however doesn't play stuffy, and I'm very fond of it.
It however sounds nothing like a flugel. In my opinion, it has a smaller brighter cornet tone than the modern large bore brass band cornets, and I like it for vintage cornet solos (although it is hardly a vintage cornet).
There was also an Imperial flugel, which may very well be what you are looking for:
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&oq=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2.1393.10422.0.11101.41.14.3.24.23.0.275.1157.8j3j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.34.1219.VJEX2p6rwH0#tbm=isch&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+flugelhorn&imgrc=THcJPDB2jdP57M%3A
I used to know a player who had one, who really liked it, or at least really liked how well it played for the price he paid. I have a feeling however that his took a cornet mouthpiece. However that isn't necessarily an issue, as Denis Wick no letter cornet mouthpieces are deeper than my Bach 3CFL flugel mouthpiece.
It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that a trumpet with a flugel-style trumpet mouthpiece such as the Curry TF, sounds more like a flugel (although my honest opinion is that the flugel has a distinctive sound, recognisable particularly in the low register, even with a shallower cup)
than a short model cornet with a deep cornet mouthpiece, which in my opinion gives a brass band-style cornet tone. My Bach 184ML cornet has more of a warmer richer version of a trumpet sound in my opinion than a British Brass Band cornet tone like that of the Besson Sovereign, and in my opinion, the Bach 184ML darkens in more of a flugel direction when played with a very deep cornet mouthpiece, than my other short model cornets, which become more brass band cornet like.
If I didn't have a flugel and wanted a flugel sound, even though I own three short model cornets, I'd personally try a Curry TF in my Bach trumpet. Whether this would give the type of lighter flugel sound that you are after, I just don't know. Maybe a trumpet with a Curry TC would also be worth a try, but that is designed to get more of a cornet sound out of a trumpet, hence the TC for trumpet to cornet designation.
I like the Imperial but as a cornet with a more old-fashioned cornet tone.
Going back to your original post, I reckon that the Imperial will sound very nice on Autumn Leaves and other slow ballads, with or without a harmon, as it has a nice sweet cornet sound. I just don't think that it would sound like a small bore flugel. Would it matter, if used as a solo instrument?
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Conn Collector
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Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 212
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | Conn Collector wrote: | Reminder:
I appreciate the additional info being provided.
My main question was about the bore size of the 1970's B and H Imperial cornet.
If anybody knows, let me know. |
Hi
I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet. I thought that mine was from the mid 1960s, but it may be the 1970s. It is in low pitch with a fixed leadpipe and extra slide before it enters the third valve.
i.e. Like this one (which is not mine):
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&oq=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2.1393.10422.0.11101.41.14.3.24.23.0.275.1157.8j3j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.34.1219.VJEX2p6rwH0#imgrc=edAq_Oib4aFbFM%3A
The bore is pretty small, as the diameter of the 2nd slide is considerably smaller than my other cornets. It however doesn't play stuffy, and I'm very fond of it.
It however sounds nothing like a flugel. In my opinion, it has a smaller brighter cornet tone than the modern large bore brass band cornets, and I like it for vintage cornet solos (although it is hardly a vintage cornet).
There was also an Imperial flugel, which may very well be what you are looking for:
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&oq=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2.1393.10422.0.11101.41.14.3.24.23.0.275.1157.8j3j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.34.1219.VJEX2p6rwH0#tbm=isch&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+flugelhorn&imgrc=THcJPDB2jdP57M%3A
I used to know a player who had one, who really liked it, or at least really liked how well it played for the price he paid. I have a feeling however that his took a cornet mouthpiece. However that isn't necessarily an issue, as Denis Wick no letter cornet mouthpieces are deeper than my Bach 3CFL flugel mouthpiece.
It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that a trumpet with a flugel-style trumpet mouthpiece such as the Curry TF, sounds more like a flugel (although my honest opinion is that the flugel has a distinctive sound, recognisable particularly in the low register, even with a shallower cup)
than a short model cornet with a deep cornet mouthpiece, which in my opinion gives a brass band-style cornet tone. My Bach 184ML cornet has more of a warmer richer version of a trumpet sound in my opinion than a British Brass Band cornet tone like that of the Besson Sovereign, and in my opinion, the Bach 184ML darkens in more of a flugel direction when played with a very deep cornet mouthpiece, than my other short model cornets, which become more brass band cornet like.
If I didn't have a flugel and wanted a flugel sound, even though I own three short model cornets, I'd personally try a Curry TF in my Bach trumpet. Whether this would give the type of lighter flugel sound that you are after, I just don't know. Maybe a trumpet with a Curry TC would also be worth a try, but that is designed to get more of a cornet sound out of a trumpet, hence the TC for trumpet to cornet designation.
I like the Imperial but as a cornet with a more old-fashioned cornet tone.
Going back to your original post, I reckon that the Imperial will sound very nice on Autumn Leaves and other slow ballads, with or without a harmon, as it has a nice sweet cornet sound. I just don't think that it would sound like a small bore flugel. Would it matter, if used as a solo instrument?
Take Care
Lou |
Thank you for that info.
It is very helpful.
I get the feeling that although the Imperial would offer a sweet sound that is different from my Conn 5a and Conn 76a with extremely deep mouthpiece,
it might not be different in the direction I want to go for.
"Just get a small-bore flugel !!!!!!"
I would, if someone would just give me one...
Darn, then I'd have to get a new mouthpiece, too...
Will this horn safari ever stop ??????? 
_________________
.
Maynard playing "Ole"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUinAhSpCdU
Morris playing "Conn 9a - Double C"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nqb-BOftg&feature=youtu.be
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Conn Collector wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | Conn Collector wrote: | Reminder:
I appreciate the additional info being provided.
My main question was about the bore size of the 1970's B and H Imperial cornet.
If anybody knows, let me know. |
Hi
I have a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet. I thought that mine was from the mid 1960s, but it may be the 1970s. It is in low pitch with a fixed leadpipe and extra slide before it enters the third valve.
i.e. Like this one (which is not mine):
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&oq=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2.1393.10422.0.11101.41.14.3.24.23.0.275.1157.8j3j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.34.1219.VJEX2p6rwH0#imgrc=edAq_Oib4aFbFM%3A
The bore is pretty small, as the diameter of the 2nd slide is considerably smaller than my other cornets. It however doesn't play stuffy, and I'm very fond of it.
It however sounds nothing like a flugel. In my opinion, it has a smaller brighter cornet tone than the modern large bore brass band cornets, and I like it for vintage cornet solos (although it is hardly a vintage cornet).
There was also an Imperial flugel, which may very well be what you are looking for:
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=667&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&oq=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+cornet&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2.1393.10422.0.11101.41.14.3.24.23.0.275.1157.8j3j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.34.1219.VJEX2p6rwH0#tbm=isch&q=boosey+and+hawkes+imperial+flugelhorn&imgrc=THcJPDB2jdP57M%3A
I used to know a player who had one, who really liked it, or at least really liked how well it played for the price he paid. I have a feeling however that his took a cornet mouthpiece. However that isn't necessarily an issue, as Denis Wick no letter cornet mouthpieces are deeper than my Bach 3CFL flugel mouthpiece.
It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that a trumpet with a flugel-style trumpet mouthpiece such as the Curry TF, sounds more like a flugel (although my honest opinion is that the flugel has a distinctive sound, recognisable particularly in the low register, even with a shallower cup)
than a short model cornet with a deep cornet mouthpiece, which in my opinion gives a brass band-style cornet tone. My Bach 184ML cornet has more of a warmer richer version of a trumpet sound in my opinion than a British Brass Band cornet tone like that of the Besson Sovereign, and in my opinion, the Bach 184ML darkens in more of a flugel direction when played with a very deep cornet mouthpiece, than my other short model cornets, which become more brass band cornet like.
If I didn't have a flugel and wanted a flugel sound, even though I own three short model cornets, I'd personally try a Curry TF in my Bach trumpet. Whether this would give the type of lighter flugel sound that you are after, I just don't know. Maybe a trumpet with a Curry TC would also be worth a try, but that is designed to get more of a cornet sound out of a trumpet, hence the TC for trumpet to cornet designation.
I like the Imperial but as a cornet with a more old-fashioned cornet tone.
Going back to your original post, I reckon that the Imperial will sound very nice on Autumn Leaves and other slow ballads, with or without a harmon, as it has a nice sweet cornet sound. I just don't think that it would sound like a small bore flugel. Would it matter, if used as a solo instrument?
Take Care
Lou |
Thank you for that info.
It is very helpful.
Hi
You are very welcome.
I get the feeling that although the Imperial would offer a sweet sound that is different from my Conn 5a and Conn 76a with extremely deep mouthpiece,
it might not be different in the direction I want to go for.
I don't know to be honest, as I am not familiar with the sound of a Conn 5a or 76a.
"Just get a small-bore flugel !!!!!!"
I would, if someone would just give me one...
Darn, then I'd have to get a new mouthpiece, too...
Will this horn safari ever stop ??????? :
Mine has lol. My brass band cornet safari finally ended with my Yamaha Xeno cornet.
Take Care
Lou
( |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Richard III
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Mike Prestage
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 722
Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:14 am Post subject: Re: B & H Imperial cornet bore size? |
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| Conn Collector wrote: | | For those of us who can't afford a small-bore flugel |
I think you're attaching far more significance to the bore size thing than it deserves. I assume by a small bore flugel you mean a Couesnon or some other instrument in that tradition. With few if any exceptions, any flugel will play more like a 'small bore flugel' than any cornet. The Yamaha 631, on which most of the modern budget flugels are based, is quite a similar instrument to a good Couesnon in some ways, despite having a larger bore by 0.020".
Mike |
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roynj
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Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2065
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Conn Collector,
I owned an Imperial Cornet and it was a fantastic player. No 1st or 3rd tuning adjustments (saddle/rings) but the natural tuning was somehow very close to spot on. As for playing characteristic, it was about the same as other cornets, but clearly a bit more resistant that my current day Besson Sovereign (French made). The Imperials from the 70s were likely .450-ish bores, which would be considered medium bores by today's standard. Frankly, I don't think you would notice much of a difference on the blow of the horn. Maybe a tiny bit tighter with obviously less projection than a present day Sov, for example. I really really regret selling my Imperial. Have you considered possibly a cheap (uh, "affordable") flugelhorn, such as the Manchester brass Ambassador. Look at Austin Custom brass webside to check it out. That seems to be a pretty nice, yet cheap horn. |
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Conn Collector
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Joined: 26 Jul 2012
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Conn Collector wrote: | How long is a B&H Imperial cornet?
Conn 5a and Conn 76a are only about 14 inches long. |
Hi
I don't know. I believe that it is shorter than my Xeno, but I haven't taken much notice. I'm not sure why it would matter, to be honest, unless someone is looking for a case for one.
Here is a photo of mine
All the best
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Conn Collector
Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 212
Location: Midwest, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | Conn Collector wrote: | How long is a B&H Imperial cornet?
Conn 5a and Conn 76a are only about 14 inches long. |
Hi
I don't know.
I believe that it is shorter than my Xeno,
but I haven't taken much notice.
I'm not sure why it would matter, to be honest,
unless someone is looking for a case for one.
|
Having the shortest cornet is a status thing.
Seriously.
You British just don't understand us Yankees. 
_________________
.
Maynard playing "Ole"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUinAhSpCdU
Morris playing "Conn 9a - Double C"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-nqb-BOftg&feature=youtu.be
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Conn Collector wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | | Conn Collector wrote: | How long is a B&H Imperial cornet?
Conn 5a and Conn 76a are only about 14 inches long. |
|
Having the shortest cornet is a status thing.
Seriously.
You British just don't understand us Yankees. |
Not only the British, you will feel at home in One flew over the cuckoo's nest. |
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Conn Collector
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