Large Mouthpiece Warmup

shaolin · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:31 pm Post subject: Large Mouthpiece Warmup

Hi All -- When I was studying trumpet with Doc, I was doubling on trombone (by necessity, not by choice, in the band I was playing in). Doc liked it, as he said that it relaxed my chops. More recently, Dave Sheetz and I did some trombone playing together, along with our trumpets. However, I find that after playing trombone, my trumpet mouthpiece feels impossibly small to play. So, as a compromise, I recently tried warming up on a Bach 1D before proceeding to play on my regular piece, an ACB TA2. It seemed to work quite well for me. Does anybody have insights on this issue? Thanks!

bach_again · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:54 pm Post subject:

I know Rich Willey doubles, so he will have an answer more apt for you.

I play trombone on and off. More so I can play and track brass pad stuff. I'll never be all that good on it.

Anyway, I when I play trombone I make sure not to play more than 5 mins then immediately switch to trumpet and play slur exercises to the extent of my range then some regular shedding. Back and forth. I play the E12.4 Ingram piece so not exactly big, and I play a Denis Wick 12CS on trombone. Middle of the road.

I tried doubling years back but my approach was all wrong. I expected to have monster bone range, played far too loud enjoying the timbre and power and didn't rest or swap back and forth. All = BAD for me. Now I play mf MAX, rest every 5 mins, play only where it's comfortable, so to a bone's high D and like I say; swap back and forth to trumpet as often and regularly as possible. I haven't practised bone in a while, but a couple months back I was able to easily play bone then switch and play slurs to double C, useable playing range more like an A or Bb just below.

I noticed my sound actually got better and it really helped me loosen up. I'm ever so cautious so I haven't played it in a while as I'm working through exercises Chris LaBarbera gave me last month and I don't want to throw my chops.

I've never done what you describe with the mouthpiece.

Read into Tom Malone... That guy plays everything, and WELL. Also, recently passed, Mic Gillette (of ToP fame) doubled. Many more, obviously.

Mike
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Mike Sailors · Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:12 am Post subject:

When my chops were all but dead a couple of years ago, the bass trumpet was what brought them back to life. Rich introduced it to me in my first lesson with him.

Nowadays, I play lots of valve trombone. I know for a fact that it makes my trumpet playing easier and more efficient.

The thing about the mouthpiece difference will be less of a hinderance the more you switch. I regularly switch between the two instruments, and while the feel is always different, you learn to trust your technique. It works very well for me.
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Steve A · Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:36 am Post subject:

Mike Sailors · Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:58 am Post subject:

Well, in the band I tour with (The Hot Sardines), I mainly play valve trombone so I play music, not exercises. I have a feature that I play most nights on trumpet, but I'd say I play the trombone 75% of the gig.

To be honest, when I'm off the road, I don't practice the valve trombone and I never really have. I play a couple of gigs on it here in NYC every now and again, but I'm generally only playing it when I'm on the road. That said, were on the road a lot, so it's on my face quite a bit throughout the year.

The approach, in regards to embouchure, feels the same between both horns. I suspect that that is why I can lay off the trombone for an extended amount of time then pick it up with little to no effect in my nightly performance.

As far as how the larger brass instruments can inform your trumpet embouchure, I'm not really sure what exactly happens. I just know that it can help.
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:32 am Post subject:

Great topic! And I didn't know you had taken up valve bone, Mike! I'm the last to know everything, I guess.

Switching back and forth constantly during practicing makes me feel fresh on "the other one" when I pick it back up. I have been doing this doubling thing since '95. Doc recommended it for everybody.

His standing caution was that if your "circles" overlap, then you probably shouldn't try doubling. He used to say the circles needed to be concentric (which, according to the dictionary definition means two different-sized circles sharing the same center point) for you to be successful at it. Well, my circles don't overlap, but I can still double. With me, the uppermost point of both circles is in the same place on my top lip. But there's no "overlap," technically speaking.

I find playing my bass trumpet to be a great way to start my day. I can just pick it up and blow a few choruses of a blues in any key, wait a few seconds, pick up my trumpet and feel like I don't really need to warm up at all. Granted, I don't do that every day, but that can sure come in handy.

Each embouchure (the low brass and the high brass) feels "normal" when I place the mouthpiece on it. My chops just automatically understand which instrument is sitting on them. That has taken a long time to achieve, but I think that with enough alternating-between-horns practicing, you can do that, also.

Easy does it at first. Gradually shorten the rest periods between instrument changes . . . very gradually. I remember I had Mike play some bass trumpet and then we waited about five minutes before he picked up his trumpet. I'm really happy that the low-brass experiment worked in his case — it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy (and a great player, too)!!!
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Steve A · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:21 am Post subject:

Thanks for your thoughts, Mike and Rich!

Mike Sailors · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:49 am Post subject:

I suppose the circles of my placement do line up, but I've never really checked it out.

I do know that my type is the same on both - IIIa.
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EdMann · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:56 am Post subject:

Same type for me, Mike, IIIA. I've been at it for about 5 or 6 years and don't switch much, but I like to start on bone in the morning. NEVER loud but the full range, a few tunes, put it down for a while and go to the main axe. I'm actually bringing it out to a gig this week, just a few notes on one of the tunes, but should be an adventure!

ed

Mike Sailors · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:01 am Post subject:

EdMann · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:54 am Post subject:

Oh, I'm a slide guy. Billy Lamb insisted that I go that route. "Gotta do the variable pitch thing." Still can't read bass clef, though.

Mike Sailors · Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:31 am Post subject:

When I started, I actually learned on a slide. I'm not trying to be a real trombone player, so I gave it up for the valves. The valve trombone to me is much more fun. The slide is a whole other thing!
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shaolin · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:20 am Post subject:

Thanks to all of you for your very helpful replies. Let me now return to my original post and ask, more specifically: In lieu of playing trombone, what about the idea of warming up on a very large trumpet mouthpiece before going to your regular trumpet mouthpiece? (In my case, warming up on a Bach 1 before playing my ACB TA2). Thanks!

Mike Sailors · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject:

markp · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject:

Mike Sailors · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject:

shaolin · Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject:

As I said, the got the idea from the fact that Doc liked me doubling on trombone for relaxing the chops, but I find the switch from trombone to trumpet daunting. I know that plenty of great players do this with great success--James Morrison especially comes to mind. Maybe I just need to give it more time and get used to it. I thought that perhaps the large trumpet mouthpiece might give me some measure of relaxation similar to the bone mouthpiece but with a less dramatic transition to the trumpet piece. I tried it last week before playing a big band gig, and it seemed to work pretty well. An analogy (perhaps a weak one!) is that it felt kind of like swinging a baseball bat with one of those weighted metal rings on it before removing the weight and stepping into the batter's box with the regular bat. The smaller mouthpiece seemed to make things easier after warming up with the monster-sized Bach 1.

StupidBrassObsession · Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 1014

[quote="BeboppinFool"] Well, my circles don't overlap, but I can still double. With me, the uppermost point of both circles is in the same place on my top lip. But there's no "overlap," technically speaking.
/quote]

Wouldn't this mean that your lip ratio changes quite drastically between each instrument? Which is to say, it seems quite possible (in my mind at least) to go from 60%top-40%bottom on trumpet, to 25% top 75% bottom if the top of both rims is in the same place. Or from 90%top to 60% top. etc
So you'd end up type switching, right?

I assume that's why Doc emphasised the concentric circles.

It probably doesn't really matter because you'd get used to one as your Trombone setup and one as your trumpet one, but I'm just curious if you think you type-switch between the two instruments?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:29 am Post subject:

[quote="StupidBrassObsession"]

Mike Sailors · Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:38 am Post subject:

[quote="StupidBrassObsession"]