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Slow Embouchure Change (Greg Spence M2M)



 
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jimontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:17 am    Post subject: Slow Embouchure Change (Greg Spence M2M) Reply with quote

Hi gang,

I've read through pretty much all of this CC forum, so forgive me if this has been asked before and I've missed it!

I'm going through what is probably best described as a "very slow embouchure change" involving spending the first part of the day - half an hour to an hour or so - playing in this "new" way, doing scales and flexibilities and things like that. The sound I can make there is wonderful, big, full and dark (by my standards) and the reason it's a slow change is that I still don't have the proper range with it to make it my full-time way of playing. If anybody's interested this is laid out in Greg Spence's "Mystery to Mastery" book.

The idea is that after this time, when playing music I go back to my "old" way (or, I don't make an effort to do the new way). This sound is much more narrow and overly bright, but has the range to get me through playing in bands and solos. The plan is that over time good habits from the "new" way creep into the "old" way (and I've already started seeing the effects of this).

The problem: I've experimented with Caruso a few times over the years. Initially I tried it with the "old" way - but the problem I see there is that all I'm doing is strengthening a fundamentally flawed embouchure; it might improve the range and sound over time but at its core the embouchure produces far too narrow a sound to be usable. The problem with playing Caruso in the new way is that at the moment there's still quite a large disconnect between that and how I play music, and the pessimist in me thinks it might not be the most beneficial aid to my playing. Lately I've just been putting my trumpet up and playing the exercises not thinking about the embouchure at all - I have a feeling you're going to tell me this is the answer. The problem here is again the disconnect: I'm concerned that whatever my body might figure out doing Caruso like this, it won't ever be able to transfer over to normal playing.

And so (finally!) the question: Do I do Caruso in the old (bad) way, the new (very good) way, the just picking up trumpet and doing it (slightly disjointed) way or not at all?

Thanks very much, and apologies for the essay!
Jim
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps in the Caruso "canon" there wouldn't be any concern - the whole point is that it doesn't matter how it sounds (or sometimes even feels), its just a workout.

Personally since you're going through a substantial embouchure change, I'd start the routine (i.e. the entire building up the routine) at the beginning with your new embouchure and taking it pretty slow. It will help reinforce the good habits without "betraying" you

Best of luck! Embouchure changes aren't easy
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StupidBrassObsession
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lately I've just been putting my trumpet up and playing the exercises not thinking about the embouchure at all - I have a feeling you're going to tell me this is the answer.


I'm interested also to see what the CC guys say, but I expect it will be this and "watch your timing".

Why does your normal embouchure sound so bad? Tension? A bad sound is too much *something*. Too much pinch, too much stretch, too much press, too much blow, too much of a shallow cup etc.

I'm curious what you perceive is the difference physically between what you do a la Greg Spence vs what you do normally?
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jimontrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

StupidBrassObsession wrote:
Why does your normal embouchure sound so bad? Tension? A bad sound is too much *something*. Too much pinch, too much stretch, too much press, too much blow, too much of a shallow cup etc.

I'm curious what you perceive is the difference physically between what you do a la Greg Spence vs what you do normally?


For me it's definitely too much pinch, stretch AND press! The biggest problem is that thirteen years of bad habits are nearly impossible to change while still being able to play when needed, hence I'm going about it this way rather than locking myself away and radically overhauling everything. I guess the biggest difference is that when playing normally everything is tucked inwards, producing a horribly tense and strained grimace. Spence's stuff has you saying "oooooo" and stopping the sound so there's only air, which has worked wonders for me. It's much more of an outward thing here.

Another difference is in the pitch changes as you go higher, so many years of bad habits has driven me to that classical thing of "smiling" - leading to an even more strained and very unreliable sound. Spence has the complete opposite, with the lips tightening and the aperture getting smaller as you go higher.
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mark61
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of doing the same thing. Practicing with the mpc up a bit, on scales and lip slurs, -Irons. When it slides down I move it back up. Mcgovenor has given me some insight with doing this and he's a good advocate.
But,when I go to play as I fatigue I go back to my old ways but am conscious of trying to slide it back up., if I can at that point. He told me to stick with it, 3-4 months tops.
It is frustrating, but there's light at the end. I also tend to pinch. Concentrsting on air and tongue levels..
I think your doing the right thing , its just patience and frustrating. Definitely not working to advance the way I was playing. Just kind of stayed in the same place on range and playing day after day and had nice lip swelling same place, upper lip day after day, which once it was other pretty much shut even my staff playing down. What good is that ?
Hoping for better things !!!
Good luck, and keep me updated. Maybe I will order Spences book.

Mark
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PH
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play CC on the old setup and it will make you a more efficient player on that setup. Play on the new set up and it will make you better at playing that way.

Remember, this isn't about strengthening and muscle building. It is about coordination and timing. You want to develop efficiency and coordination on your new set up and CC calisthenics is the most efficient way I know to do that.

Also, don't worry. The new way you are learning to play will be the way you always play in 3-4 weeks if it is more efficient way to play.
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mark61
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH / BILL
IS THIS INSTRUCTIO FOR BOTH OF US ?

THANKS
MARK
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PH
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark61 wrote:
PH / BILL
IS THIS INSTRUCTIO FOR BOTH OF US ?

THANKS
MARK


Yes. I think this applies to both of you.
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deleted_user_02066fd
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When done properly the Caruso routines have a sort of self correcting property. I studied with Carmine and also with one of his students from 1974-1980.
The one thing that really needs to be an absolute is the foot tapping. Concentrating on your attack and coordinating it with the foot teaches the body to react as a reflex. This takes away the need to constantly adjust and fiddle with your chops.
I play slightly off center and at one time my upper lip rolled inward on one side and rolled out on the other. Trying to purposely correct this did not work. Doing the routines as Carmine dictated fixed this over a few months time. Caruso is not a quick fix and patience is required. It's a good idea to find someone who has studied with and actively teaches Caruso's principles.
Best wishes.


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mark61
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the help !!!!!!!

Mark
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may seem odd coming from me but I would hesitate doing CC until your new embouchure is established and solid.

Before studying with Carmine I studied with the great Bruce Reavez at City Opera. We did a major embouchure change and Bruce did not allow me to play above G just above the staff for 4 months.

Then with a fundamentally sound embouchure I studied with Mr Caruso.
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mark61
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would think the 6 note exercise would be a good start. Or not?

Mark
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following the 4 rules religiously, let the CC calisthenics work for you and eventually determine how your embouchure develops. Don't think! Let it happen by itself. Probably should let an experienced CC player watch the way you do them from time to time. Focus on timing and nothing musical.

When you practice non-CC material play anyway you want and do not employ the 4 rules or the CC approach. Focus on timing and everything musical.

Is there really such a thing as a flawed embouchure? I would say that there are plenty of embouchures that need to be balanced more. CC didn't use the term "embouchure" too much. He would say "balance" when others would say "embouchure."
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gstump
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark61 wrote:
I would think the 6 note exercise would be a good start. Or not?

Mark


Great advice for just the 6 notes.
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jimontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great advice everybody!
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