Why do I play better on an old cornet?

[jadickson]

I'm a little frustrated, and hoping that someone out there has had a similar experience and can offer some guidance.

I have two horns. One is a Bach 37 with a valve alignment and no damage. The other is a 1945 Conn 12A cornet that has, I assume from the solder marks, had some serious repair work done to the bell and the valves are visibly out of alignment.

I rarely play the 12A, but picked it up tonight just for fun. I found that the partials (C-G-C-E-G) were closer together and easier to get around, and when I went to play above the staff, it was noticeably easier and I had a bigger sound.

My beat up old cornet should not be easier to play than my $2000 Strad... and yet... here we are.

I played both with a Bach 3C, by the way, so we are comparing apples to apples.

So what's happening? Why does the cornet work better for me? Is it the larger bore (the 12A has a .468" bore)? Is it the smaller leadpipe venturi? Both?

And given what I have found with the 12A, is there a modern trumpet out there that would be a better fit for me than the Bach?

So tired of feeling like I am fighting the horn...

Thanks for any advice.
_________________
Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com

[lgt0412]

In my experience, picking up a "new" horn (any horn that isn't the horn I play most of the time) is that way. It seems great and wonderful. If you played on that horn exclusively for a few days and then went back to your normal horn ..... the "new" one will feel crappy (if it was crappy to begin with) and your great normal horn will seem like a million bucks. Just my experience.
_________________
Van Laar B6
Bach LR19043B
Kanstul 1600
Conn 38B
Van Laar BR3 Flugel
Blessing Super Artist cornet
Greg Black Mouthpieces

[shofarguy]

Justin,

There is a famous letter written to Elden Benge by Herbert L. Clarke saying that the trumpet will never replace the cornet, as the cornet is vastly superior instrument, or something like that.

That being said, I have found that there is at least one trumpet that feels like it works with you and not against you. Others definitely feel good, even great, but over a long day of playing, the Flip Oakes Wild Thing gets you to the end of the gig better.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[A.N.A.Mendez]

Relax, go with what works.... Who cares how things should be.......
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚

[Mike Sailors]

I've thought about this for a long time. I'll tell you this, you're not crazy. There is something about the cornet that is easier to get an acceptable sound and navigate one's useable range with more ease.

Honestly, I think what matters most in this regard is the mental aspect of playing. I think there's something about the cornet that allows one to release their "mental trumpet baggage" - making it easier to relax and focus on music instead of the mechanics of playing.

The bell is also closer to your head, making it easier to hear yourself. Also, the shorter shank effects resistance and blow.

All that said, I do think that playing the cornet can open up one's playing on the big horn. Again, I don't know why exactly, but that's been my experience.
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www.mikesailors.com

[amzi]

When I was beginner "everyone" started on a cornet. Well, one guy had a trumpet, but he didn't last long. Anyway, the conventional wisdom was that cornets were easier to play better sooner. Once we got to high school some of the section gravitated to trumpets, but even more just kept playing their old cornets. I no longer have the Getzen Super Deluxe cornet I started on, and I don't want another one, but I sure like my Recording. Over the years I've had several cornets and they are always fun to play. There is such a velvety richness about the sound. I don't play my Recording cornet much in public, but it's always on a stand in my practice room. So, you're not crazy, you're just experiencing the joy of playing a cornet.
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Recording Olds Trumpet
Bach Stradivarius ML 37
Bach Stradivarius CML 236
Bach Stradivarius Bass Trumpet
Holton T171 Alto Trumpet
Yamaha 610 Eb/D Trumpet
Kanstul 920 Picc.

[royjohn]

Well, lots of reasons the cornet might play better. Larger bore, different leadpipe, different mpc gap, shorter mpc (less resistance), cornet having more flexibility (due to more conical tubing?), etc. There's also a possibility that the Bach 37 is not a great instrument itself or isn't tuned up well.

I don't find this hard to fathom at all...might have a tech look at the Bach...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Crazy Finn]

Bach 37 vs. a Conn 12A? And the Conn plays better?

Duh!



https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn12A1940image.html
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[dstdenis]

I notice something like that when I play cornet. They have a different response and blow that makes it easier to get around in the middle and low register compared to trumpet. I suppose it's something to do with the wrap and rate of taper that makes the instrument feel more responsive and nimble.

I find trumpet easier to play above the staff than cornet. For me, trumpets speak more readily, as long as I'm playing with enough support, where cornets start to fight back. I play a cornet mouthpiece with a deeper cup, though, and I think that's some of the difference.

You might play test other trumpets to see if there's something easier to play and that you like. My Xeno is easier to play than my Bach 37, but it still plays like a trumpet. Unless there's something amiss, though, you might find that your Bach 37 is fine in trumpet terms.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[VetPsychWars]

These two play exactly the same.



That said, the Bach probably just doesn't fit you as well as the cornet does. I suppose there wouldn't be a host of people building a better Bach than Bach does if they were superior instruments.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[jadickson]

Thanks for the replies so far. Regarding the "bell is closer to your ears" thing: it's not just that I can hear myself better or it sounds better to me (it does), but it is physically less work to get up to the G on top of the staff.

I do find it more difficult on the 12A to get down to pp volume without the tone cracking up. But like I said, the valves on my 12A are visibly out of alignment, so I would get that fixed before passing judgement.

[scipioap]

[Mike Sailors]

[jadickson]

[dstdenis]

Whenever I feel that I'm struggling to get around on the trumpet, I set aside some time during my next practice to play some of the easier Bai Lin flexibility exercises (group 2 or 3) with a nice, easy, relaxed approach. It always seems to do the trick for me.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi

[Mike Sailors]

[John Mohan]

[DaveH]

I also think that the cornet can be perceived as easier to play. I have always thought that some of it was due to the cornet's physical design and blowing characteristics.

Regardless, I can relate the original post. Having been primarily a trumpet player, any time I have had the opportunity to pick up a cornet, I have often had similar thoughts.....assuming the trumpet was a decent trumpet and the cornet was a decent cornet.

[Seymor B Fudd]

[Louise Finch]

Hi Justin

This in my opinion could be owing to a few things.

One is resistance. I personally feel that there is a difference in where I feel the resistance between my Xeno Cornet/previous Sovereign cornet and my Bach 184ML cornet/trumpets. I feel resistance further down with the Xeno/Sovereign, somewhere around the location of the valve block, whereas the resistance seems to be at the mouthpiece end with my Bach Cornet and trumpets. My Bach cornet and trumpets have a gap between the end of the mouthpiece and start of the leadpipe., and I presume that this is what I am feeling. I have no idea whether the 12A cornet has a gap.

I believe that the wrap of a cornet adds to the resistance, as does presumably the narrower diameter at the start of the leadpipe.I personally feel that my 0.470" I believe bored Xeno cornet has more resistance than my 0.459" bored Bach trumpet.

I however feel that the fact that your cornet is harder to play at quieter dynamics may be counter-indicative of it having more resistance than your trumpet, but I would have thought that the valves being misaligned would increase the resistance, and level things up.

In my opinion, cornets are more agile then trumpets and seem easier on which to play things like the carnival of Venice.and I personally feel that there seems to be more upper register support on cornets between G at the top of the stave and high C, but that above high C the cornet is more likely to shut down on you if you use too much air, and that the trumpet has a more open upper register.

Maybe the Conn 12A cornet is simply easier to play then a Bach 37 trumpet, and there are too many variables to ascertain why.

It may be that there are some small issues with your Bach 37 that could be improved by a good tech.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs