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Fingers on valves



 
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shaolin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Fingers on valves Reply with quote

I don't recall Doc ever talking to me about the position of my fingers on the valves, and I don't see anything in the Pivot System Encyclopedia about it. In playing with Dave Sheetz, I notice that he plays with his fingers flat across the valves. Is playing with arched fingers or with flat fingers purely a matter or personal preference, or are there general principles involved that favor one method over another? I seem to play more cleanly with arched fingers but faster with flat fingers, so I try to favor the former, assuming that clean is better, and that speed comes with practice. Any thoughts?
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed many more players in recent years who lay their fingers across the valve buttons rather than placing fingertips on the valve buttons as was more common in the past. I haven't heard any reason why.

I use fingertips, as I was taught. Longer lever arm requires less rotation at the knuckle joint. Also, the valve casings on my Getzen cornet are spaced further apart than my other instruments and so it's easier to play it with fingertips on the valve buttons.

Even with the fingertip approach, I have to be careful about getting lazy and moving the valves too slowly. I play better when I push the valves down more decisively. That's easier for me with fingertips on the buttons (as long as I remember to push the valves more forcefully).
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a matter of personal preference and that players just sort of gravitate in the direction of what is comfortable and mechanically works for them. I'm a fingertip player and have been a fingertip player so long that laying the fingers across the valve buttons seems cumbersome to me. I do think I was probably specifically taught to be a fingertip player from the beginning but it was so long ago I can't remember for certain.

That being said, Carl Saunders lays his fingers way across the valve buttons and his dexterity in operating/coordinating the valves is amazing. So, what works is whatever works. The valves don't have an opinion.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doc taught me to lay my fingers flat across the valves — he said that would improve my technique a good 20%. Unfortunately, that's one thing that never "took" for me. In fact, my fingers have never been the same since I tried undoing the way that I was taught and tried laying them flat.

Every day that I practice I spend time trying to tame my wild fingers to stay over the valve caps and once in awhile I achieve a little bit of success. That has become my biggest problem in playing — I have asked many people if they could see why my fingers are so unwilling to cooperate and so far nobody has come up with a lasting, "permanent" solution for me.

I did work out of the Mark Hendricks "Give It The Third Finger" book with some success, but when I don't work out of it daily, my fingers instantly go back to their mediocre unreliable selves. I can't practice out of that book every day because it is frightfully boring (musically speaking), even if it was somewhat successful for a couple of weeks.

The other thing that I try to do is play as much bass trumpet as I do trumpet, since my fingers are much more cooperative on bass trumpet than they are on trumpet. Once in awhile that seems to help.

I have always watched my students' fingers, and have told them (especially if their fingers are reliably staying on the valve caps) not to change anything about their finger technique. Every once in awhile I have a student whose third finger wanders (like mine) and I tell them that it might be a good idea to try to get that finger to cooperate now while they're young rather than waiting until they're 40+ years old to try to correct years of bad habits (which is what happened with me).

I got to play standing alongside Carl Sauders once (I even have a recording of that somewhere), and noticed that his fingers have taken the finish off of the bell section of his horn where his fingers overlay way past the valves. I have tried to emulate that manner of playing but it just doesn't seem to work for me.

Great topic, I would love to find the answer one day.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
The valves don't have an opinion.


Valves actually DO have an opinion, if you're not pushing them down straight ... I naturally play with flat fingers and I do think that is more prone to pressing at some funky angle.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I teach my students to have a natural arch to their fingers and to use the tip of the finger to touch the finger button (the part of the finger that touches a coin that you pick up from a table-not the very tip nor the middle of the "pad" - in between). Also to keep your thumb slightly arched and positioned under the leadpipe touching between the 1st and 2nd valve - opposing your fingers - not under the leadpipe outside the valve cluster. As you look at your hand in playing position is looks like a backwards "C" or like you're holding a hamburger.

This puts your hand in the most efficient position, allowwing the 3rd joint (knuckle) which it your fingers pivot point, to move less. Like a lever, if you'r using anything further back from the tip - you essentially have to work harder to do the same action. And we know that an arch is much stonger than a straight support.

Yes, it doesn't take much effort to move the valves but, isn't your approach to make it as easy as possible to play? Mastering the trumpet is hard enough, why make it harder?

And I know, one could make a list of players that use flat fingers, some puff their cheeks, hold the instrument in a funky manner, but these are on the list of "bad" habits that I (and many) teachers will work to improve to maximize your potential.

this article is talking about the left hand mostly but a solid right hand too:
http://itgyouth.trumpetguild.org/masterclass/33-get-a-good-grip-on-your-trumpet
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shaolin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All -- Many thanks for the helpful replies. Judging from the several responses, my own experience, and observing some top-flight players, I suspect that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to this. For example, my fingers are quite short, and so when I try to arch them to the height of the valve stems, it creates quite a bit of tension in my fingers, hand, wrist, and forearm. This, I think, is why the flat-fingered approach gives me more speed; it's because I'm more relaxed. Precision is something I'll just have to work on--along with everything else!
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googanelli
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just try to be relaxed.

I did have a teacher who addressed it once upon a time by having me put my thumb on my nose and wiggle my fingers as a kid would do while taunting someone. He said that that is the most natural way to wiggle your fingers. Arching seemed like more work than just relaxing and playing.

Joe
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For jazz improv, I tend to lay the fingers across the valves, because it enables me to move more quickly and really react instantly to the ideas I hear.

But for classical, where 100% accuracy is paramount, I play with my fingertips.

So for me, the position of my fingers depends on what I need most. For speed, lay 'em flat. For accuracy, arch 'em.

Your mileage may vary.
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