Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:18 am Post subject: Why does "chest up" help? (as per clarke gordon?)
Hi all. I just have a why question.
(In case you haven't crossed paths with me, I'm a musician new to trumpet, and have been reading up on pedagogy to try and learn the trumpet).
This technique "chest up" has given me an extra 4 high notes reasonably reliably. (Well.. increased my range up to G just above the stave).. but I can't conceive WHY that would achieve that. Does anyone have any idea of the mechanics of why that works?
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:28 am Post subject:
Your chest and airway are resonant cavities too. You change the harmonics that are produced by opening up your chest and opening up your throat.
You'll see posters following up talking about wind and unrestricted breathing and stuff like that but it's the resonances that make the difference.
Which is not to discount relaxed breathing. If everything is working properly together, you should be able to take a big breath and let it "just fall out" without pushing and using a full resonant tone. Good horns mated with a good-matching mouthpiece facilitate this so you don't have to work so hard.
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:48 am Post subject:
Here's a link to a thread posted back in 2004 that describes a master class by David Krauss, principal trumpet with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. This popped up on another thread recently. Lots of great info in this, including posture. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:20 am Post subject:
dstdenis wrote:
Here's a link to a thread posted back in 2004 that describes a master class by David Krauss, principal trumpet with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. This popped up on another thread recently. Lots of great info in this, including posture.
That is an awesome post, thank you for linking to it. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
This topic has more excellent information from David Krauss. David pointed me to the book "The Art of Singing" by Enrico Caruso (several posts down in the link), and his words were very descriptive and set the stage for a really good conversation with a number of posters from TH. For me, this approach is more about releasing the air whereas Claude Gordon teaches the player to more actively push the air out. Jim Wilt talks about a gentle push on the air which is between these two. I think exploring the differences between each of these approaches has merit and learning to do this without tension will guide you to the sound that makes the most sense for your playing style. I relate more to the ideas from David Krauss and Jim Wilt than Claude Gordon. _________________ Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest
Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:51 am Post subject:
vetpyschwars, thank you for your c;ear explanation
dtsdennnis and Drek thank you so much fr those links. And Derek thanks for providing such clear information. Honestly I haven't read Gordon's stuff yet, although i have ordered it, so i could read it soon! i just noticed a few blogs and this 'chest up' stamp. and tried it and it helped. I will study these other threads in great detail today. thanks so much!
Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 483 Location: Nashville, TN
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject:
Mark Van Cleave has a youtube series & I believe he talks about this during a portion of one of the videos. _________________ trumpet - synths - cornet
Bach//Blackburn
Patrick Mouthpieces
The chest (ribcage, lungs, heart, lots of muscles, etc.) weighs about 40-50 pounds for the average adult. Runners soon learn that allowing the chest to drop creates a lot of work to lift/drop/etc. in conjunction with breathing. Thus, good runners keep the chest high so that movement is minimal. Breathing from the belly will need to occur more often this way, but it is much less work in the long run. Allowing the chest to drop before each breath will soon result in a side ache.
Taking quick breaths when singing or playing a wind instrument will be easier if the chest remains high.
Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:23 am Post subject:
What u say makes sense.. although for my woodwind instruments high chest is a no no. You are supposed to relax chest and breathe into abdomin.... Sort of.
I don't know how to ask my question. But can u see a reason why it might be different?
Thanks everyone for contributing.
I am hoping to get a lesson soon. It would take a special type of teacher to answer all My questions though!
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:45 am Post subject:
Sarah wrote:
What u say makes sense.. although for my woodwind instruments high chest is a no no. You are supposed to relax chest and breathe into abdomin.... Sort of.
I don't know how to ask my question. But can u see a reason why it might be different?
Thanks everyone for contributing.
I am hoping to get a lesson soon. It would take a special type of teacher to answer all My questions though!
If put the same amount of air through your clarinet than you do your trumpet, there would be lots of shrieking.
For me, this approach is more about releasing the air whereas Claude Gordon teaches the player to more actively push the air out. Jim Wilt talks about a gentle push on the air which is between these two.
It is rarely completely one or the other. The air pressure variance required to play dynamics will ALWAYS vary how much a player actively uses exhalation effort. There is also zero (or less) contribution from "releasing the air" as the air volume in the lungs is depleted for a long phrase. It is impossible to play the dynamics required without often using active exhalation.
Regarding "resonance" of the body. There very little contribution of such, especially from the lungs. The resonance is in the instrument.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:29 am Post subject:
Sit in a chair and slump (sag) with your shoulders, chest, and chin down like a sad monkey. Take a deep breath. Now sit erect with your shoulders back and chest up, take another deep breath. Posture matters. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:37 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Quote:
For me, this approach is more about releasing the air whereas Claude Gordon teaches the player to more actively push the air out. Jim Wilt talks about a gentle push on the air which is between these two.
It is rarely completely one or the other. The air pressure variance required to play dynamics will ALWAYS vary how much a player actively uses exhalation effort. There is also zero (or less) contribution from "releasing the air" as the air volume in the lungs is depleted for a long phrase. It is impossible to play the dynamics required without often using active exhalation.
Regarding "resonance" of the body. There very little contribution of such, especially from the lungs. The resonance is in the instrument.
+1
Also, the register in which one is playing makes a huge difference. Each octave jump in register at a given sound pressure level will require an approximate doubling of the generated air pressure. While it is certainly possible to "release" the air to play a quite Low C (relying on the lungs' natural elasticity to return them to their resting size and having that little bit of air pressure generated by them fuel the note) attempting to do the same in order to play a full power High C is not going to work out very well.
And note to the person Darryl was quoting: Claude did not advocate just blowing hard (or "actively pushing" as you wrote) all the time. We were told to "back off" for the lower notes and "let the air do the work" for the higher notes.
[Edited to add the last paragraph, and then edited again to correct my misspelling of Darryl's name - sorry about that!]
Last edited by John Mohan on Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:55 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Why does "chest up" help? (as per clarke gordo
Sarah wrote:
Hi all. I just have a why question.
(In case you haven't crossed paths with me, I'm a musician new to trumpet, and have been reading up on pedagogy to try and learn the trumpet).
This technique "chest up" has given me an extra 4 high notes reasonably reliably. (Well.. increased my range up to G just above the stave).. but I can't conceive WHY that would achieve that. Does anyone have any idea of the mechanics of why that works?
Thanks in advance
Sarah
Here's your answer:
If you slouch and maintain poor posture you will only be using a few of the available expiration muscles when blowing (the abdomen muscles and the anterior (front and side) portions of the internal intercostal muscles). You will NOT be allowing the main muscles of expiration (the posterior portion of the internal intercostal muscles) to contribute to the work. As such, players that slouch and don't stand or at least sit upright are only using a fraction of their potential air power.
If you keep your chest up (but not tense) in a position of good posture, you then allow the posterior portion of the intercostals (which are the main muscles of expiration) to contribute.
You can demonstrate this for yourself: Slouch down in a position of bad posture, take a breath and blow all the air out. Keep blowing when empty and you'll feel the all the blowing effort in the area of your abdomen and front sides of your ribs. You won't feel much if any work being done by your mid to lower back muscles (the posterior portion of the internal intercostals).
Now, get your chest up in a position of good posture, take a breath and blow the air out again, but this time keep your chest up in a position of good posture even as you run out of air. Keep blowing when empty and notice how you now feel your back muscles (posterior internal intercostals and a few others) contributing in addition to the abdomen and front-sides of the rib muscles. Now ALL the available muscles are helping with the job.
Here's a couple videos, one of which was part of my Anatomy and Physiology class while will help illustrate how we blow:
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
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16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 19 Jul 2016 Posts: 113 Location: Australia
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:48 pm Post subject:
Now I am thinking I might be over exaggerating keeping the chest high..... When playing trumpet that is... Because everything u say is what I know for woodwind re slouching and breathing. Hmm.. but then it helps me get higher notes. I am hoping I can get a lesson today! Will make the call as soon as it is a reasonable hour!
Still don't u understand why that means I can get the higher harmonics though haha. Just I can obviously see that it works b
Thanks everyone for your contribution to my developing brass knowledge. And for your posts on a million other threads that o read.
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:28 pm Post subject:
I imagine it like there is a handle on my breastbone and someone taller than me is pulling it up. Since you're a girl, I don't know if the geometry is the same, but you get me, I'm sure.
Joined: 27 Jan 2002 Posts: 1140 Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:33 am Post subject:
I don't like the idea of adding anything to our natural process of respiration. If you're trying to raise your chest, you're adding something (I can't see how you're adding anything but tension) to the process. Breathe comfortably and fill from the bottom up. Your chest will naturally expand outward/upward when you fill up (without any help). That's all you need, and you don't have to think about it. Stay loose/relaxed in the abdominal area when inhaling.......this will allow you to fill up from the bottom up and to obtain a comfortable but full breath. _________________ Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/ www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/
I tend to sit according to what i`m playing.If playing a loud big band/salsa gig or a shout chorus in a musical,I tend to be chest up,thinking wind forward..Playing an intimate jazz quartet its not that I so much slouch in the chair,but its usually a more relaxed position
A good way of seeing if chest up is good for what your trying to do,is to play say Clark 1 going higher sitting,and then play it standing up..I find standing(which to me is more of a chest up position) much easier;;I took a few lessons years ago with Vince Penzarella who spoke of playing as if your standing while you are seated,or something like that.
I never take in a breath any bigger than I do when speaking.
Anymore air is a waste. Further, it's toxic.
From the moment you take in oxygen, it is immediately transferred to carbon dioxide. Keeping this inside your lungs ( ultimately your whole body...including your brain) is what causes headaches, black outs, and increased, unnecessary body tension.
This is why " huge breaths, yoga breath, raised chest, huge lung capacities " etc etc are not only wrong, they are detrimental to your playing, and overall health.
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