Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:09 am Post subject:
NYC-player wrote:
This is why " huge breaths, yoga breath, raised chest, huge lung capacities " etc etc are not only wrong, they are detrimental to your playing, and overall health.
As John Mohan aptly explained, "chest raised" means "correct posture", and while it may facilitate you using more of your vital capacity, the primary purpose is to free up muscles for compression of the air/contraction of the lungs.
As for "huge breaths" and "yoga breath", the folks that typically teach this kind of technique are teaching very high compression playing. Most (not all) of those players don't use those techniques except in those conditions.
Finally, "huge lung capacity" is a misnomer. You don't develop "huge lung capacity". The chest cavity allows for a fixed, maximum capacity/volume of air to be held. This is called "vital capacity" in medical terms. You can work to make yourself able, through training, to use most of your vital capacity (running is a great way to do this, because your body will naturally adopt the most efficient method it can to get more oxygen when you are running and fatigued). I'm not sure how this is supposed to be bad for your overall health...
I do recognize that many of us take in more air than we need, and this can cause problems. But I would urge folks here not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" when evaluating these techniques. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:11 am Post subject:
Might want to review some basic physiology, Krebs cycle, and all that jazz. And look up valsalva maneuver while you're at it. I don't believe excessive air alone causes all those things...
Excess air can cause tension and some other issues, but good posture makes most folk play better, not worse, and the "raised chest" concept helps that. And numerous studies have shown that many if not most amateur and beginning players do not take in enough air. As a pro you have learned exactly what is needed, but many players are "sipping" and running out of air, causing other problems.
Balance in all things... - Don
edit: Jeff said essentially the same thing but better whilst I was typing... _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 725 Location: California
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:41 am Post subject:
One of my teachers told me a possibly folkloric story about Pavarotti as a student. His teacher noticed he was holding his arms down at his sides as he sang which was inhibiting his breathing and adding tension to the sound. So he had Pavarotti hold a handkerchief in each hand and hold his arms straight out to the side as he sang. It had the effect of freeing up his sound production. The handkerchiefs were just there to form a vivid memory. So from then on Pavarotti always carried a handkerchief in one hand to remind him to free up the breathing mechanism.
Regarding the comments on blowing pressure, another one of my teachers told me to envision the way it feels when you move your open hand back and forth under water. There's "some" pressure but not lots of it. Blowing pressure should be like that. Some pressure but smooth and not too muscular.
A third observation - have you ever heard a class of preschoolers playing out in the schoolyard? You can hear blood curdling double-Cs coming from the kids as they're playing. All that coming from tiny vocal chords with very little "strength" and from little kid lungs. They're just playing freely and having fun. No real strength or technique involved.
There might be something to the idea of playing trumpet as freely as you played in the yard as a kid.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject:
NYC-player wrote:
Anymore air is a waste. Further, it's toxic.
From the moment you take in oxygen, it is immediately transferred to carbon dioxide. Keeping this inside your lungs ( ultimately your whole body...including your brain) is what causes headaches, black outs, and increased, unnecessary body tension.
The above statements defy medical knowledge of physiology.
NYC makes very good points. And yeah O2 doesn't turn to CO2 super fast, but he makes good points.
- people can get to the stage of over full and out of breath.
- over breathing and relying on that extra elasticity in the overinflated chest to play notes doesn't address chops or technique.
- trumpet doesn't take a lot of air to play. Any low brass doubler will tell you this.
- air is often the go-to answer for people who can't teach. Air is only part of the equation.
Here's a low quality video of me practicing octaves in the high register. It's not perfect, but you get the idea; I'm not tanking up. I store videos on YT privately to review later, or to share with people who can help me or are working on the same stuff by means of mutual encouragement. This isn't ego, nor is it my business card so to speak.
NYC makes very good points. And yeah O2 doesn't turn to CO2 super fast, but he makes good points.
- people can get to the stage of over full and out of breath.
- over breathing and relying on that extra elasticity in the overinflated chest to play notes doesn't address chops or technique.
- trumpet doesn't take a lot of air to play. Any low brass doubler will tell you this.
- air is often the go-to answer for people who can't teach. Air is only part of the equation.
Here's a low quality video of me practicing octaves in the high register. It's not perfect, but you get the idea; I'm not tanking up. I store videos on YT privately to review later, or to share with people who can help me or are working on the same stuff by means of mutual encouragement. This isn't ego, nor is it my business card so to speak.
Dude...you sound killin. Wicked control and high chops man. I like the way you approach hour playing. Relaxed and controlled. That's the way to do it man.
Dude...you sound killin. Wicked control and high chops man. I like the way you approach hour playing. Relaxed and controlled. That's the way to do it man.
Thanks man, too kind!! _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:34 am Post subject:
NYC-player wrote:
How am I wrong? Oxygen doesn't turn into carbon dioxide when playing trumpet?
That is not what you wrote. But that is also wrong. Oxygen remains Oxygen. During cellular respiration Oxygen combines with Carbon (that comes from Carbohydrates) to form carbon dioxide.
You originally wrote:
Quote:
"From the moment you take in oxygen, it is immediately transferred to carbon dioxide. Keeping this inside your lungs ( ultimately your whole body...including your brain) is what causes headaches, black outs, and increased, unnecessary body tension."
First off, oxygen is not "immediately transferred" into carbon dioxide. It is a gradual process and the rate varies according to how much energy is being expended.
Secondly, black outs during trumpet playing are not caused by taking full breaths. They can be caused by playing notes that require higher levels of thoracic pressure than blood pressure which impedes the release of blood from the brain (and causes us to turn red while playing). Sometimes the blackout occurs after the notes are played by a sudden drop in cranial blood pressure as a note is released, allowing the blood to rush out of the head dropping the blood pressure too much for a moment.
[edit]: If you were suggesting that taking full breaths and never releasing much of the air in the lungs (i.e. filling up, playing a note or two and then refilling, over and over) could cause trouble, yes, that would cause levels of C02 to build up in the system with negative results, but that's not what I or anyone else is advocating. [end of edit]
Thirdly, taking a full breath does not automatically cause "body tension". Yes, some people try to overfill and this can lead to unwanted tension. The correct way to breathe is to maintain relaxation in the uninvolved muscles of the body. There's no reason one can't learn to be able to fill up (again, not over-fill) and maintain a relaxed state.
The idea of "stale air" being caused by taking full breaths and never emptying the lungs completely is a misnomer. If one takes a full breath and blows until about half empty and then refills, there will be plenty of oxygen available in the body system. A long distance runner (whose level of aerobic activity is much higher than that of a trumpet player and must therefore take in much more oxygen for cellular respiration than a trumpet player) doesn't empty his or her lungs with each breath - usually a person jogging will fill up, then breathe out until a bit more than half empty, and then fill up again.
While it isn't necessary to take a full breath to just play a note or two, if one makes it a habit to fill up (comfortably relaxed) and never get below half empty while playing, one's endurance will rise significantly.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Last edited by John Mohan on Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:39 am Post subject:
bach_again wrote:
Classic TH.
NYC makes very good points. And yeah O2 doesn't turn to CO2 super fast, but he makes good points.
- people can get to the stage of over full and out of breath.
- over breathing and relying on that extra elasticity in the overinflated chest to play notes doesn't address chops or technique.
- trumpet doesn't take a lot of air to play. Any low brass doubler will tell you this.
- air is often the go-to answer for people who can't teach. Air is only part of the equation.
Here's a low quality video of me practicing octaves in the high register. It's not perfect, but you get the idea; I'm not tanking up. I store videos on YT privately to review later, or to share with people who can help me or are working on the same stuff by means of mutual encouragement. This isn't ego, nor is it my business card so to speak.
Yes, one does not need to fill up completely to play high notes (though I find that my very highest notes come easier when I take a full breath). As I was taught by Claude, always (or nearly always) taking a full breath is more to help with endurance. I really fail to see how one can argue that maintaining a position of good posture and taking a full (relaxed) breath while playing a wind instrument is a bad idea...
Yes, one does not need to fill up completely to play high notes (though I find that my very highest notes come easier when I take a full breath). As I was taught by Claude, always (or nearly always) taking a full breath is more to help with endurance. I really fail to see how one can argue that maintaining a position of good posture and taking a full (relaxed) breath while playing a wind instrument is a bad idea...
Thanks!
I would never argue against good posture! I guess I'm against over breathing and tanking up for high notes.
I shed for about 2.5 hours today then went and did a dance band gig, a 2.5 hour straight through high energy set. I was paying attention to my breathing. It's relaxed, and suited to the phrase. If I'm honest, what I am more careful to do than fill up with air is to get the stomach muscles engaged "under" the lungs when necessary. The wedge. For the loud high I know I engage and rely on these muscles. Enough air to talk a sentence is usually enough. I also make care to play as vibrantly as possible, which allows you to use even less air, and I try to keep my volume in check. I also have a sound model of "compact and tidy" articulation which really helps me endurance wise, when I remember to do it.
Tonight I was trying to play as much as possible on a long setting and reduce movement further. I'm home, and my chops feel like I could go do another 2.5 hr set tonight, feels great not being beat up. One of the great things I just bought was in ear monitors. Man this makes gigging life so much easier. Kicking myself for not buying sooner!!
Anyway, I'll stop teaching y'all to suck eggs. But in short, I really think trumpet needs way less air than most think.
Oh and a neat exercise to feel the wedge work is from Brisbois: blow most of your air out then attempt upper register work. It removes the crutch of the big elastic over full rib cage/lungs and boils it down to the muscles needed to create air pressure. I remember trying this when I was an over filling air type guy and I lost an octave. Now if I do it I usually gain range. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:19 pm Post subject:
NYC-player wrote:
I never take in a breath any bigger than I do when speaking.
Anymore air is a waste. Further, it's toxic.
From the moment you take in oxygen, it is immediately transferred to carbon dioxide. Keeping this inside your lungs ( ultimately your whole body...including your brain) is what causes headaches, black outs, and increased, unnecessary body tension.
This is why " huge breaths, yoga breath, raised chest, huge lung capacities " etc etc are not only wrong, they are detrimental to your playing, and overall health.
This is why Maynard Ferguson could never play well, sounded terrible, and had such a short career.
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:19 pm Post subject:
Sarah wrote:
Now I am thinking I might be over exaggerating keeping the chest high..... When playing trumpet that is... Because everything u say is what I know for woodwind re slouching and breathing. Hmm.. but then it helps me get higher notes. I am hoping I can get a lesson today! Will make the call as soon as it is a reasonable hour!
Still don't u understand why that means I can get the higher harmonics though haha. Just I can obviously see that it works b
Thanks everyone for your contribution to my developing brass knowledge. And for your posts on a million other threads that o read.
Sarah, you should learn who some of these contributors are. Some very heavy cats! And passionate disagreement comes with the turf of hanging with those who play the King of all instruments, haha. The resolution to many a disagreement is CONTEXT.
In context, NYC Player, and later Bach again, are talking about something Doc Reinhardt termed "timed breathing." This is useful for getting through very extended playing with no breaks, which is usually first encountered in etudes of a full page or longer. Learning to take in just enough air for the phrase, and where you need to take your next breath. This is more like a singer needs to do, and I imagine not far off from being a woodwind player?
Taking the biggest breath you can and then playing continuously until empty is EXHAUSTING! It is also one of the things I did right as a young developing player, and one of the reasons I had such rapid success, esp with the upper register. Not the way to play a full-page etude however
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:22 pm Post subject:
razeontherock wrote:
Taking the biggest breath you can and then playing continuously until empty is EXHAUSTING!
Note that one of Claude Gordon's rules was "never get below half empty" (except when doing the long hold at the end of the Systematic Approach Pedal Note exercises, or when practicing the Clarke Technical studies in the way Clarke and Gordon had their advanced students do them (as do I), many repeats in one breath at a very quiet volume).
The muscles involved in breathing don't do a very good job of doing what our brains tell them to do; nor do they do a good job of letting us know what they've actually done. In short, those muscles can be liars when dealt with individually. This might be why you see so much disagreement. I can tell my breathing muscles to make all of the appropriate movements (whatever they may be) and it may look and feel like I'm doing those things, but I might be doing a terrible job of moving air.
The goal of course is to move the air so that we can play comfortably with a beautiful/appropriate sound. The goal is moving air, not expanding the correct parts.
Our best source of feedback on the quality of breath is the sound of the air coming in. Once it gets past our ears, there are some shady characters in our own bodies telling us what is happening. Our bodies are prone to lie.
This isn't to deny the value some fantastic players and teachers have found in giving specific instructions on how to breathe, but for me and my students, I've found the most success in dealing with the sound of a good breath and chasing that.
Sit comfortably upright, keep calm and relaxed, listen for a good breath, and play with a beautiful sound. If thinking about your chest helps that, then wonderful.
There are of course breathing models that take a different approach entirely. If you're using a wedge breath or something like that, then do that boldly.
Good idea- using the chest area to make your sound resonate is a wise choice. It's the same reason operatic singers use their chest voice, not their head voice.
I don't like the idea of adding anything to our natural process of respiration. If you're trying to raise your chest, you're adding something (I can't see how you're adding anything but tension) to the process. Breathe comfortably and fill from the bottom up. Your chest will naturally expand outward/upward when you fill up (without any help). That's all you need, and you don't have to think about it. Stay loose/relaxed in the abdominal area when inhaling.......this will allow you to fill up from the bottom up and to obtain a comfortable but full breath.
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