Power vs. Efficiency approachs?

[BGinNJ]

I know this is kind of a broad brush, and they're not mutually exclusive, but there's the large bore/big mouthpiece, physical approach ala Claude Gordon, and there's the shallow mouthpiece/resistance, "efficient" approach.

How do you know which (or any particular pedagogy, for that matter) is right for you, that you're best suited to, without going too far down a long path?

[Mike Sailors]

Its a combination of both.

How's that for confusing?
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[chrisneverve]

As a brass player, only you can know what is right for you. No amount of knowledge can give someone the ability to give you your own answers. That being said, I think that trial and error is the only way. I tried for years to be a tight efficient player, using minimal effort at all times. It never worked for me. The day I finally accepted the fact that I should embrace the physical approach is the day I started making real progress. I studied with a teacher who knew this. His method was to give every student many different approaches and let them find the one that best suited for them. When I made the choice to move forward I had many lessons to fall back on.

I would say try every approach that you can. If one works, stick with it for a while. If it doesn't, put it aside. Go until you find one that works. And don't be surprised if you go in circles, it happens.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

My first thought is, I play a 1.25C with a 22 throat, and I strive to play efficiently at all times. Even though Mr. Adam often talked about "copious amounts of hot, wet air," the "hot wet" part of that means that actually you aren't moving all that much air anyway.

I think that the actual physical operations of really good well-rounded players are probably less different than the roads they take to get there.

I'd also submit that my experience has been that I very often did not know what was best for me. That's why I paid a teacher.
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[lakejw]

I believe that if you practice efficiency well, power will come. It's easy to add power - just blow harder. But if your oral cavity, articulations, and embouchure are not working efficiently, over-blowing the horn will only create more problems. I believe this is true of any mouthpiece or horn setup, though in full disclosure I play a medium horn and small-ish pieces.
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[Mike Sailors]

[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

[VetPsychWars]

[BGinNJ]

All helpful comments, thank you!

I should describe how come to this question. I had a teacher in my late teens/early twenties, and I learned the usual long tones/scales/Clarke/Colin stuff. I used the ubiquitous Bach 37 ML with a slightly modded 3C (opened bore, flattened cup). At my best, on a good day I had a high F, endurance was never that great. As an amateur jazz player, I didn't put in the hours, nor did I have a teacher anymore to get beyond that.

Fast forward 10+ years, and on a comeback, I pulled out a Systematic Approach book I'd had, but never used before. It made a lot of sense, and I got stronger with better tone, if not higher range. I think the big takeaways were playing with more breath support, and better structured practice. Not the bright sound and chops I wanted, though.

Fast forward another 10+ years and another comeback, I found a chop guy online who's approach made a lot of sense, and I would characterize it as the "efficient" way. A few Skype lessons in the last couple of years helped tremendously. Along the way I switched to a lightweight lead horn and tried both a big Megatone, like my old 3C, and a shallower, tighter mouthpiece. The efficient approach seemed to call for the smaller mouthpiece, but lately, though, I can't make it work well- it feels stuffy, and I sometimes bottom out or overblow it. With the 1D Megatone, no problems other than the tone is a bit darker (but fuller) and it takes more work.

It's not really a mouthpiece question, though. It's more does "play the biggest mouthpiece you can", which seems easier for me, indicate I'd be better off with a more calisthenic method (like CG and Caruso), or does it mean I'm not using the finesse and fine muscle control that would make playing easier?

[tptguy]

Here's a great place to start:

"... back off on the sheer volume of air that one might otherwise use and concentrate on playing with a focused stream of air that places a premium on an aperture which is not blown wide apart because you like wrestling your horns to the ground like hogs." Jens Lindemann

[pepperdean]

"It's not really a mouthpiece question, though. It's more does "play the biggest mouthpiece you can", which seems easier for me, indicate I'd be better off with a more calisthenic method (like CG and Caruso), or does it mean I'm not using the finesse and fine muscle control that would make playing easier?"


I just want to clarify what appears to me a misunderstanding. Carmine used the word "calisthenic" to distinguish the practice protocol for his exercises from the way you should "play" or perform music on the trumpet. It does not point toward any type of equipment or style of playing. The long-setting, nose breathing, and foot tapping were to be used with a set of exercises that were much like the push-ups and sit-ups an athlete might use before a game, exercises different but helpful to the performance to follow.

Alan

[BGinNJ]

Oh I get that Caruso's method didn't dictate equipment or playing style, that it was just about exercise (gear independent). Only with regard to gear, I was just wondering if finding a bigger mouthpiece worked better was a clue that I needed to use more exercises/method like Caruso to support it.

I'm finding as I explore this more that yes, I need to do exercises- and play them efficiently!

[Trumpetingbynurture]

The idea is quite confusing...

Efficiency of what?

In your mind, I think you're talking about efficiency in terms of the amount of air used to play the instrument, right? Or the amount of air it takes to get a sound?

But by that token, a very very pinched embouchure playing on a small bore trumpet with a #35 throat and a dimple cup is the most efficient way to play the instrument. And it might be. But if it doesn't sound great... it doesn't matter.

Conversely, efficiency could mean efficiency of muscle use. And so you hear some people talk about using the air so that you can 'save the lip'.

In trumpet playing, I'm pretty sure true efficiency is about both. It's about balancing the air and the embouchure. Too much air, and you'll sound bad and tire quickly. Too much facial tension/effort and you'll sound bad, and tire quickly...

The right amount of air and the right amount of facial activity so that you produce a good sound, however, is what efficiency is.

You can move the balance a bit without the sound suffering much - more depending on how 'developed' you are - but each person has a comfortable sweet spot. That balance will change as your playing develops, but efficiency is developed around producing a good sound, not around arbitrarily reducing or adding air flow or facial tension etc.

Overtime, playing with a good sound, your embouchure will develop strength in that 'setting', and the amount of perceived effort will reduce. Simultaneously, new neural connections develop and your ability to finely control and adjust the embouchure improves, and so you are able to control what you're doing so that the least amount of effort is wasted while playing.

All this means that over time, you have the perception of gaining efficiency. Really, I think you're just gaining strength and control.

For example...

Player 1. Beginner. Have 10 units of embouchure strength. To play a good middle G they are using 8/10 units of strength. Playing feels effortful.

Player 2. Developing player. Has 50 units of embouchure strength. To play a good middle G requires 8/50 units of strength. Playing feels fairly easy.

Player 3. Advanced player. Has 50 units of embouchure strength, but has the fine control to not waste muscular effort. To play good middle G require 4/50 units of strength. Playing feels effortless.

Okay, so that's only a metaphorical example, and this doesn't mean you should go inject steroids into your face...

Some things develop control, which lets you improve the units of strength required for the task. Some things develop strength which lets you improve the units of strength available for the task. I think any teacher will have you improve both, and I'm sure if you look closely enough, you'll see that both do.

Using very mechanically efficient equipment is fine so long as you can produce a good sound around which to develop strength and control. Likewise for large mouthpieces and instruments.

[RussellDDixon]

I am not a professional trumpet player ( I have played some professional gigs; taught lessons; taught clinics etc.) and in my 55 years of playing, have only recently had my first lessons with CG Certified Teacher Bruce Haag and Bill Adam disciple Matt Anklan (both here in Cincinnati). Both told me that I was doing everything correctly and to carry on.

Matt suggested that I practice my legit studies (Adam Routine) on my Bach Mt. Vernon 10.5C that he gave me and then hit the range exercise with my MF type lead pieces. So, one mouthpiece is a more compression (C cup) piece #27 throat and the other is a very open (smaller v cup mouthpiece - #23 throat open back-bore). I have played on everything from a Schilke X4, large bore Benge to a Schilke S42 and Bach #37. I now play on a Yamaha YTR- 8340 Miyashiro Model (multi-bore) trumpet because that is what my wife bought me as a gift several years ago. Steve Patrick has also suggested playing in the same exact way as Matt Anklan ... and he too is an Adam pupil.

My experience has been that I prefer the resistance more down inside the horn rather than within the mouthpiece. I have found this by trying high compression mouthpieces with #28 throats and tighter back-bores and I just cannot play them as well as the more open MF type v-cup pieces. (Trial and Error)

I have discovered the compression aspect by watching players on YouTube.com and by experimenting within my range studies. As Chad Shoopman has said ... there are very minute adjustments that you learn within each note as you ascend etc in terms of compression and physical adjustments.

I have to agree with Bobby Shew in that "you are your own best teacher." I would highly recommend a Skype Lesson with him and he charges $50.00 for 30 minutes.

As he, Roger Ingram, Brian MacDonald and others have stated, why use a Dump Truck to fill and flower pot ? You use the right tools for what you are after. I can play high and loud on my Bach Mt. Vernon 10.5C mouthpiece and I can play with beautiful tone on my MF pieces ... however, I use the equipment that best fits what I am doing at the moment.

I apologize to all for rambling; however, as Bill Churchville once told me ... you have to find where YOU prefer the resistance to be within the equipment (mouthpiece, horn etc.)

Great playing is a combination of many factors working together in harmony including air compression along with the optimal equipment to fit YOU. I Hope this helps.
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[dstdenis]

I try to steer more toward the efficient approach, for two reasons: 1. It helps me play better for longer without getting worn out. 2. I'm rarely in situations where the trumpet part needs to be played with massive power and volume. However, I'm often in situations where the part would be more musically effective, appropriate for the space, and better balanced with the ensemble if I back off and don't push so hard.
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[dershem]

[Shaft]

HOW DOES ONE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR ONE'S SELF?

For me it was a few things.

1- What do I want to be when I grow up? or for the gig Friday? , etc...

commercial, , jazz chair of big band, lead, small room solo/combo , section, Orchestral etc......

2 - What type of "Trumpet Great" are you emulating or your personal tapestry of influences that make you have a personal timbre, etc. ?

3- I had Pops' Clint Mclaughlin's input and follow up and used his advice to help me, along with Dr. Rick Bogard of UTA, Dr. Dennis Horton as a not ready for college student at C.M.U., Scott Sorensen (ITG member), and my high school director CMU grad, sharing advice with me since the age of 12 at its earliest point in my life.

cornet with a 7c at first. (6th grade), then a 5c mpc later, 8th grade Bach 37 w/ 3c mpc, 9th or 10th grade 1c mpc w Bach 37.

Now my Bach 37 was very very (stuffy, tight) something...Dr. Bogard a certified Bach clinician had some thoughts on my particular horn as it would have been different than 5 other ones on a table.

at age 18 I began work with Marcinkewicz shew 1.5 with my Bach 37

at about age 22 or 23 after meeting Pops I bought my curry 70m, then a Wild Thing trumpet.

I have stuck with that combination for 15 years.

4- When I decided on learning more about my embouchure and how I would CREATE COMPRESSION it became more like tuning an indy car with transmission gears and camber, etc. etc. etc.

Now it was a question of... How much of the following....

1- lip to lip compression
2-shape of aperture tunnel (depends on what I want to do with the zip and color of the sound)
3-ab compression
4-tongue arch
5- air items internally with the column of air diffusing at different points in the exit of my body.
6-mental imagery (lazer through back of hall entering the building of the next street past the home run fence like plasma. Or a tenor opera singer, etc..... (sound concept)

Balance of Stevens, lip buzz embouchure, open chop setting, whether or not I had an efficient embouchure or a brute force approach....

ALL of these have been different doses over the years and for the record....

I am no expert on these items. Professional players, trumpet jocks as Dr. B said, and gear heads, and true deserving individuals and amateurs alike can share this and much more on the subject.

It is as rich a topic as the ways to successfully swing a golf club.

ENJOY THE RIDE
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[trumpet56]

As a young trumpet player, especially after going through the Caruso course (power and efficiency) I had power and endurance to burn!! Now as I enter my sixties I have come to realize that I must focus more on efficiency to maintain that power and I don't just mean playing loud and high but also soft and low which is where I spend most of my practice time.

[Martinharris]

Efficieny is way more powerful than power/forcing approach.
But for classical you can't be too efficient because you have to use a deep mouthpiece.
The best, most versatile players can utilise both big and small mouthpieces and have practiced loud, powerful classical excerpts and have also learnt to use minimal air for when they are playing lead on a shallow mouthpiece.
But if the question was: Best approach to play lead trumpet, efficiency would win every time