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When are the rules really the rules?


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ProAm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: When are the rules really the rules? Reply with quote

I recently started a thread that was on a serious topic, new forums, but went so far south (not my fault) that the entire thread has disappeared.

Jens Lindemann, who I immensely respect, has started a thread purely to sell a new product of his and Pickett Brass, which, theoretically, is against the policies of TH.

If I were to start a thread to advertise for sell mouthpieces of my own creation it would be pulled immediately because I am a nobody.

Which gets me back to the thread I started that was pulled -- A forum for industry news would be a perfect place for a thread from Mr Lindemann on his new mouthpieces. Someone mentioned I should check Facebook for this news which is a good idea and something that hadn't occurred to me, duh.

Now I know and understand and completely agree that this is a private site owned by someone who may act as he sees fit. However, it would be nice if the stated rules were adhered to by EVERYONE.

And I know all the responses, I suppose, as I have read them before. Not enough moderators (though has anyone actually tried to solicit moderators? are they really that hard to find?), we tolerate certain indiscretions with certain people because of the benefits to all (including the person who will gain monetarily, of course), etc.

That's my mini-rant.

PS - despite saying this, I wouldn't mind checking out the Lindemann mouthpieces ...

PPS - Don Hermann you don't have to say it because I know what you are going to say. But then you probably knew that I'd say this so I really shouldn't post but I can't resist and so you probably shouldn't resist, either.
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Usage Agreement prohibits material that "[a]dvertises, promotes or offers to trade any goods or services to an excessive or unreasonable extent."

If you look through the forums, you will see that the Moderators have pretty consistently allowed announcements about new products. I don't see a rules violation at all.
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. Excessive and unreasonable are subjective, of course.

My point is not to complain about this or any other instance per se. It seems like there should be a better way to handle this from the top.

Oh well -- start my own site, I know....
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Don Herman rev2
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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: When are the rules really the rules? Reply with quote

ProAm wrote:

PPS - Don Hermann you don't have to say it because I know what you are going to say. But then you probably knew that I'd say this so I really shouldn't post but I can't resist and so you probably shouldn't resist, either.


One "n" at the end...

Not sure what you think I was going to say. We have new folk pop up all the time that are relative unknowns at the time. Torpedo, numerous players with new music releases, Monster Oil, etc. The vast majority are unknowns to most of the members. Trent was a new poster at one time.

A single thread announcing a relevant new product, yours' or anyone's, is not going to get pulled. What will get pulled is a personal advert for a horn or whatever; that is expressly against the rules, something that was implemented many, many years ago (I've been on this site since about 1998, changing user names once due to a site hack). Otherwise we'd be flooded with "for sale" items and that is not the intent of the forums.

We have deleted redundant threads and advised members when we feel their advertising gets "excessive", like announcing a new product in every sub-forum, or starting five new threads to get your product in the Marketplace.

Judgement call? Of course, but we follow the sysadmin's guidance in this and all things.
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trumpetmike
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having been here a while (and posted here more than anyone else ) I've seen a number of people come along and spam every forum with news of their new mouthpiece/instrument/case/gadget/magic Dubba C "method" - and they have soon had a number of the adverts moderated into the ether.

In many ways, one could argue that each of the specific "methodology" forums are advertising for certain teachers (or organisation, in the case of the ITG forum) - haven't got a problem with them either.

Compared to many sites I frequent, there is a lot less over-the-top advertising on TH than elsewhere.
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel better knowing I contribute to the forum by supporting it with a yearly banner ad. I try to keep as far away from being the true salesman I am directly in my posts and encourage emails over forum selling but I'm sure it blurs the lines at times.

Supporting TH with an ad would be a welcome suggestion for all advertisers and on other forums they have dedicated "sponsor" areas which IMO is a great idea IMO.

-T
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trumpetjens
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW....just stumbled on this upon landing in Toronto from vacation in Newfoundland. Too bad because it put me in a sad mood. For the record, I am NOT selling a mouthpiece here! Not a dime goes into my pocket nor will it ever! If you want to buy anything from Peter (my gear or anyone elses's) be my guest. His product is excellent and he is highly respected.

If anyone wants to talk to me about my approach to trumpet and mouthpiece I am all in. Please do not put me into the category of people selling things...that is neither my intention nor my reason for posting my philosophical approach to playing.

Jens Lindemann
www.trumpetsolo.com
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mm55
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: When are the rules really the rules? Reply with quote

[quote="Don Herman rev2"]
ProAm wrote:

What will get pulled is a personal advert for a horn or whatever; that is expressly against the rules, something that was implemented many, many years ago

But there have been quite a few contrary examples. Someone who is well-liked here, or considered a fine player or teacher, can frequently get away with posting items for sale, and the post is not pulled. In some cases, sellers have openly admitted that the ad doesn't belong in the forum, but that they'll post it there anyway, because more people will see it in the forum than in the marketplace.

Well-known posters can get away with violating this particular rule; in fact, it's not particularly uncommon. In plenty of cases, the rules are not the rules, at least for the regulars.
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Last edited by mm55 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thomas T
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being a new guy, take this comment with a grain of salt. I began a comeback last fall after quitting for sixteen years. My chops were wrecked and they still need lots of work, even after practicing as much as life will allow. I got no problem getting and reading advice from chop doctors, product designers, sellers, etc. I've followed the rabbit hole and made some purchases from threads I've discovered on here, as well as on Facebook. The wealth of knowledge and mass information on here is invaluable. If a guy has earned his stripes, let him help people...I want to see what is new...how the heck else will I find out? I've come across so much information here that has helped me recover much faster than going at it alone...can't even tell you how many times I've posted here or on FB where one of these guys have answered a question, or sent me a PM with free, no strings attached advice. If it ain't obnoxious, please let us know what's good and new in the trumpet world...sure has helped this hack.
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trumpetjens
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My intentions for posting in the mouthpiece section were obvious…mouthpieces! I have not posted anywhere on TH in quite a while and thought this would be interesting. I will continue to respond to my original thread as long as there is interest.

Jens Lindemann
www.trumpetsolo.com
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Don Herman rev2
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Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: When are the rules really the rules? Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:

What will get pulled is a personal advert for a horn or whatever; that is expressly against the rules, something that was implemented many, many years ago

But there have been quite a few contrary examples. Someone who is well-liked here, or considered a fine player or teacher, can frequently get away with posting items for sale, and the post is not pulled. In some cases, sellers have openly admitted that the ad doesn't belong in the forum, but that they'll post it there anyway, because more people will see it in the forum than in the marketplace.

Well-known posters can get away with violating this particular rule; in fact, it's not particularly uncommon. In plenty of cases, the rules are not the rules, at least for the regulars.


We don't read every post every day and are more likely to check on a new poster than a well-known one. But nobody should be selling a personal horn in the forums. If you see a violation the correct thing to do is to PM Moderators immediately. Or start your own forum where you make the rules (and enforce them as you please). It's hard to be all things to all people all the time.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, ProAm finally saw the answer that he knew was coming!

To clarify, I'm not expecting anyone to be all things to all people. But I wish that the forum moderation would be mostly the same thing to all people.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must of missed this part of my post:

Quote:
But nobody should be selling a personal horn in the forums. If you see a violation the correct thing to do is to PM Moderators immediately.

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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Must of missed this part of my post.

No.
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'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, if you see a problem, report it to the Mods, via a PM to Moderators. There's no point in calling me a liar or whatever your agenda is. Or team up with ProAm and start your own forum.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never called anyone a liar, so I don't know what your agenda is.

Posts offering horns for sale have remained posted in forums, even after the user named "Moderators" or one of the other users with "moderator" after their name has posted on the same thread. Sometimes users put advertising in their signature, thus advertising in every forum post they make.

The moderators obviously have some "leeway" to allow for-sale posts to remain, but I still believe that applying the rules more consistently would be better. Apparently that belief offends some people.
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'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note the dedicated forum moderators, such as myself for the Chicago Forum, are not in general the same group of "super" Moderators that oversee all the different forums. Dedicated forum moderators only have the power to moderate within "their" forum.

If you have a problem with a post, PM username Moderators. Don't bother responding in the thread, that just extends the mess.

Signatures are not something we pay attention to unless somebody has a problem with one. I personally find them innocuous unless they are very large (many lines), have embedded pictures, are profane, whatever. I rarely look at signature lines.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you should start your own forum.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That seems to be a very popular response to the suggestion that the rules be enforced uniformly, which is an unpopular suggestion.
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'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a trumpet forum, people. Let's try to remember that.

Also, posts like the few that Jens have made are, in my opinion, the best part about this place.

More of those types of posts, please.
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