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When a type IV (upstream) is working perfectly......


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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:29 am    Post subject: When a type IV (upstream) is working perfectly...... Reply with quote

The type IV is one of the very oddest types in brass playing. When everything is "lined up" so to speak they can do the seemingly impossible. And when things are "off" they can sound like one of the worst players you've ever heard (bad pitch, rattles, no control, zero tonguing) to name a few.

This young man from England Louis Dowdesworth is one of the greatest examples of a perfect type IV since Bud Brisbois.

Effortless range, octave shakes and the steel like type IV sound.

Political correctness does not exist in the trumpet world. All types ARE NOT created equal.

Just take a short list of all the great high note players (exceptions do happen now and then, Maynard for one)

Bud Brisbois
Cat Anderson
Derek Watkins
FADDIS
Buddy Childers
Scott Engelbright
That great lead player who just retired from the Army band (forgot his name, is a IV)
Charlie Shavers
Al Killian
Leo "The Whistler"
Pete Candoli (in his youth Woody Herman days)
My Paisan Andrea Tofinelli
Nick Russo (could play loud double B's into his late 80's!)
^^^^

Check it out......Three names in a row that end in a vowel. What about LABARBERA???

Sorry fells, I'm stuck in IIIB land. Great sound, but have always had to practice hard to keep the doubles going strong


All the best to you guys and remember all you poor downstreamers.....STOP BLASTING OUT THOSE MIDDLE AND LOW NOTES. At least give yourself a fighting chance.

Love you guys,

Chris LabarberA


Last edited by Mr.Hollywood on Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: When a type IV (upstream) is working perfectly...... Reply with quote

Mr.Hollywood wrote:


All the best to you guys and remember all you poor downstreamers.....STOP BLASTING OUT THOSE MIDDLE AND LOW NOTES. At least give yourself a fighting chance.

Love you guys,

Chris LabarberA


can you please elaborate on this comment for the uninitiated? (struggling downstreamer here)
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BrassM,

Basically overblowing the middle and low registers spreads the apature making the high register much harder.

Take a few days and look through this Reinhardt forum, there is a wealth of info here not just from me, but many others who have studied with Reinhardt.

Good luck with your playing,

Chris
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always love when Mr.Hollywood posts!

Great stuff my man.

Hey, have you done any experimenting with Lynn's Xpiece? Right now I'm going back and forth as he suggests.. 3-5 min on the X, 3-5 min on my Candoli.. I did longer sessions before with just the X but it was giving me trouble going back to my piece.. I do definitely feel more air take over when I ascend and more relaxed feel to the chops.. I'm wondering if the unfurling promotes more forward pressure from the chops.

Hope your doing great and a lot of playing..Things are cool here..busy with a lot of jazz stuff, so that's always good:-) Best, Lex
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love when Chris posts, too.

If we can keep this a Reinhardt-oriented thread, that would keep this in the spirit of the "mission" of this forum, that is, to find out about the teaching of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.

I know L.N. was a Reinhardt student, so we're not totally on thin ice here, yet.



Thanks!
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was just such an awesome post.
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
I love when Chris posts, too.

If we can keep this a Reinhardt-oriented thread, that would keep this in the spirit of the "mission" of this forum, that is, to find out about the teaching of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.

I know L.N. was a Reinhardt student, so we're not totally on thin ice here, yet.



Thanks!


I have seen his video and, aside from mentioning upstream/downstream and pivoting incidentally it doesn't sound as if he took anything from his Reinhardt studies?
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynn and I have been friends since 1980.

Reinhardt said it would be a good idea to give Lynn a call because we were (at that time) exactly the same types IIIB with a type I (one) tongue.

Jerry is right about Lynn, he really doesn't use Doc's stuff at all. He really feels that he has discovered MF's "secret" to playing high.

I think Lynn is a very bright guy and he is definitely on to something. But I have just one comment on his approach.......look at his face very closely when hes talking. He has almost no outer red tissue on his upper or lower lips. So when he says that he is unfurling could it be he is just making normal red lips like most people have. Now I know the very first response will be MF had very thick red lips".

Just a little something to think about. I also believe this is why he can play such small mps.

For the record though....I asked Walt Johnson on a Sinatra Jr. gig who had the loudest DHC he ever heard and without missing a beat he said "Lynn Nicholson". Roger also told me tthe same thing. Like a jet taking off..........

CLB
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He has almost no outer red tissue on his upper or lower lips. So when he says that he is unfurling could it be he is just making normal red lips like most people have. Now I know the very first response will be MF had very thick red lips".

Just a little something to think about. I also believe this is why he can play such small mps.


This is a great point. I also have quite thin lips and it was only when I transitioned down to smaller diameters that the altissimo range opened up for me as well as real 'lead' type power. Still though, I can play more curled in with my thin lips and it's a different feel. I'm thinking about how Ghitalla taught some students to play...that 'M' setting. My point is that there is definitely a different feel in the chops when I'm playing unfurled. This is all felt inside the mouthpiece, everything outside the mouthpiece pretty much feels the same. It's just that I can tell my lips feel a little more 'unrolled' inside the mouthpiece and they are even more relaxed. But I don't feel this at all effects anything about my IIIB-edness. Best, Lex
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

" my IIIB-edness"

That's funny Lex.......

the word "edness" does not appear in Reinhardts Encyclopedia. You better be careful that the iron fist of Rich Willey doesn't come down on you. (just kidding Rich) You are a great monitor and have kept the pedal pushers out of here for years. I know its a thankless job.

Chris LaBarbera
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Martinharris
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chris,
Big fan here! The problem I've had with your "buzz and play quietly" is that for me, my lips just get tighter and tighter and my upper register starts to get a lot thinner and the sound cuts out very easily.
So Chris, how do balance that small aperture stuff and keep the vibrations from cutting off?
(IIIB here)
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha - I knew you'd like that one dude;-) yeah man I cut rich some slack w his hardcore moderation because of his jazz playing. And he apparently uses some crazy big reeves. Better suited for sipping grappa out of IMO. Have you checked out Jim new's new site and pieces? Pretty bad ass. With a comparator and everything. He's got some custom tops of some really well known lead cats. Check out his awesome new I'm taking the Chase top for a spin on this big band gig right now. Thinking of getting the Trigg top - that sucker is shallow! Apparently, the original is an Ingram rim 'Cink with a shallower cup than a Shew 1 and that great Candoli backbore. Jim probably tweaked it even more. Best. Lex
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Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:07 pm    Post subject: Hey Reply with quote

I'm one a dem too btw
And I can tell u I fit the bill...
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I know u r with the great jazz playing - but can you drink grappa out of ur 3C?
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:33 pm    Post subject: Send Reply with quote

Send me your email please Lex.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ljazztrm@gmail.com Just on a gig and killing time between soundcheck, etc.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis has an electrifying sound!

He sounds quite similar to me to Eric Miyashiro, and Eric is also a mystical phenomenon.

If you like Louis' playing, you can also help his group out a bit and get charts and recordings for a lot of his youtube stuff from Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/chickentiko

Worthwhile cause IMO.
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No sarcasm intended here.

I said he has great high notes, I never said that I would really care to listen beyond a few minutes of youtube.

Why listen to high note players when I haven't heard every Fat's, Clifford or Freddie recording there is out there.

I could never understand why people would want to listen to the 1000th player with good high notes cover "Rocky". I heard MF do it live so many times in the 1970's. Whats the point.

I'm WAAAAYYY past that. Maybe if I was 16 again.....

CLB
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All -- Chris, great stuff, thanks! I'm a IIIB, and my type-IV envy mostly has to do with endurance. I recall Doc telling me that when a IIIB got tired out, he or she was done, period. A IV, on the other hand, seemed to be able to go on forever.

Chris, something you said about Lynn's lips got me wondering: Lynn apparently shows no outer red tissue. I don't recall Doc talking to me about this issue, but my own observations tell me that I play with a "Maggio" type embouchure--lots of red, rolled outward. Did Doc ever talk about this issue? If so, what did he say about it?

Thanks!
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Hollywood wrote:
No sarcasm intended here.

I said he has great high notes, I never said that I would really care to listen beyond a few minutes of youtube.

Why listen to high note players when I haven't heard every Fat's, Clifford or Freddie recording there is out there.

I could never understand why people would want to listen to the 1000th player with good high notes cover "Rocky". I heard MF do it live so many times in the 1970's. Whats the point.

I'm WAAAAYYY past that. Maybe if I was 16 again.....

CLB


Because it's totally not an issue to listen to and enjoy both?

In fairness, it seems like he plays a lot of high notes because that's what gets him gigs, but can you blame him? I wouldn't jump to pigeon-holeing him quite as much as you are.

There's a recording on youtube if you go through enough pages of the search of him playing the Harry James Concerto. Sure, doesn't touch your own recording Chris, but he was what, 16 or 17 or something when it was recorded I think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnjhzttS1j0
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