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When a type IV (upstream) is working perfectly......


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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said no sarcasm and I meant it. As far as his embrouchure goes hes got something very special.

But I do not listen to ANYBODY play Maynard cover tunes that have been done seven zillion times.

Tunes like Rocky, Maria, Bridge, and all the others that have been done ad infinitum.

With all the great music there is to listen to out there that I "haven't" heard yet I'm not wasting my time.

Its like going to the same magic show and watching the same woman being cut in half over and over again.

Honestly I very rarely even listen to Maynard anymore and NOBODY will ever play his songs as good as him.

Chris
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there was a way to star Chris' last post I would. I love it
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how threads can stray away from the OP.

Does Tom Harrell look like an upstream player to you guys?

He is quite possibly my very favorite of all the modern jazz players out there and definitely not because of his high notes. In fact, some of his best playing doesn't go too far above the staff. It's what he plays that rings my bell, not how high he plays.

My wife and I have an extremely low tolerance for high-note trumpet players and I regret that I have had to work so hard building a high register just to try to have a "correct" embouchure. Like Doc said, if you don't possess a consistent and reliable G above the staff (not sitting on top of the staff, the one with four leger lines), then there is something wrong with your playing mechanics. In order to improve my playing mechanics, I have to somehow strive to get to the point where that G is a usable part of my range.

Sad but true.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Hollywood wrote:
I said no sarcasm and I meant it. As far as his embrouchure goes hes got something very special.

But I do not listen to ANYBODY play Maynard cover tunes that have been done seven zillion times.

Tunes like Rocky, Maria, Bridge, and all the others that have been done ad infinitum.

With all the great music there is to listen to out there that I "haven't" heard yet I'm not wasting my time.

Its like going to the same magic show and watching the same woman being cut in half over and over again.

Honestly I very rarely even listen to Maynard anymore and NOBODY will ever play his songs as good as him.

Chris


Sure, all I'm saying is you can't begrudge a guy taking the paid gigs available to him, right?
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
Mr.Hollywood wrote:
I said no sarcasm and I meant it. As far as his embrouchure goes hes got something very special.

But I do not listen to ANYBODY play Maynard cover tunes that have been done seven zillion times.

Tunes like Rocky, Maria, Bridge, and all the others that have been done ad infinitum.

With all the great music there is to listen to out there that I "haven't" heard yet I'm not wasting my time.

Its like going to the same magic show and watching the same woman being cut in half over and over again.

Honestly I very rarely even listen to Maynard anymore and NOBODY will ever play his songs as good as him.

Chris


Sure, all I'm saying is you can't begrudge a guy taking the paid gigs available to him, right?


You're missing Chris' point entirely. In exactly the same way that you enjoy listening to him execute these covers so very well - your preference; Chris prefers to listen to what he prefers. Nothing to do with begrudging him a living, nor is it an overbearing statement of opinion - just preference.

Mike
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bg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two categories of trumpet virtuosi.

1. The people who work tirelessly on developing their technique, because their musical conception is beyond their ability to execute.

2. The people who develop their technique ahead of their musical conception. These are the trumpet jocks.
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PH
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
There are two categories of trumpet virtuosi.

1. The people who work tirelessly on developing their technique, because their musical conception is beyond their ability to execute.

2. The people who develop their technique ahead of their musical conception. These are the trumpet jocks.


Where's the like button?!?!?
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bg wrote:
There are two categories of trumpet virtuosi.

1. The people who work tirelessly on developing their technique, because their musical conception is beyond their ability to execute.

2. The people who develop their technique ahead of their musical conception. These are the trumpet jocks.

Lucky for me I'll never fall into any category of trumpet virtuoso!

Now, Chris LaBarbera on the other hand . . . he gets to live with the burden of being one of the world's least-known trumpet virtuosi . . . for what it's worth coming from me.



Excellent points, though, Brad!

What was it Doc used to say about talent? How it can be one's worst enemy or something like that?
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. And I wouldn't dare to make a point to disagree with anybody's voices.

I agree with Chris that, yup the 70s are over, and this stuff has been done over and over.

However this Louis guy has hundreds of thousands of views on his YouTube vids. He plays the heck out of those parts, nice arrangements with a bunch of great musicians.

And if those 100s of thousands of views might get a couple young trumpet players excited about playing trumpet, or older guys may get excited about one more round of a comeback--- I'm all for it!!

I think this is why Baskin Robins offers 31 flavors of ice cream.
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Rich pointed out, this thread has gone into the far country. Would anyone like to speak to Chris's Type IV stuff that opened the thread, or to my question in response to his remark about Lynn's lack of red tissue in his embouchure? I really do wonder if Doc addressed this issue of the "rolled in" versus "rolled out" embouchure.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You're missing Chris' point entirely. In exactly the same way that you enjoy listening to him execute these covers so very well - your preference; Chris prefers to listen to what he prefers. Nothing to do with begrudging him a living, nor is it an overbearing statement of opinion - just preference.

Mike


No, no, I get Chris' preferences. I hardly listen to scream playing either, but it just seems like he's being put into the 'he's only good for high notes' category. I really don't think that true though, I think he does that because that gets him gigs, but I'm pretty sure Louis Dowdeswell didn't get through his time at the Royal Academy of Music just with high notes. I dunno why I'm being defensive about it, I just hate seeing a great player being written off or pigeon-holed because he's too good at what he's being paid to do. His videos have a lot more than just high notes, and a hell of a lot more musicality in them than a lot of guy who make their bread and butter from playing in the upper register.

He's way more than a high-note jock in my opinion. That's all I'm saying!
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen...... I opened the post up with how great his upper register is. I was never looking to insult this guy. But I never said I was a fan of his musicality or jazz playing. His chops came to him by way of mother nature, but the other things must be worked at for years. Its a lifelong study that never ends. Just ask Rich or Brad or any of the other "real" jazz players involved here.

Let me ask you this trumpetingbynature- if his high notes are getting him so many paying gigs then why is he asking for donations to finance more of these Maynard/Wayne covers.

I do believe if the music biz holds up and his playing matures he could very well wind up getting some of the calls that the late Derek Watkins used to get.

I done with this. This his high school/ drum and bugle corps territory.

Have fun all you trumpet jocks re-living 11th grade.

I ducking out of here and listen to Fats Navarro (one of my all time favorites) playing with Sonny Stitt and Tadd Dameron.

I don't want to ever go back to the 1970's (thats when jazz rock/fusion began creeping into real jazz). I want to go back to NYC circa 1946. I want to be right on 52nd street between 6th and 7th ave. So I could hop from club to club and hear Diz, Roy, Charlie Shavers, Buck Clayton, Frankie Newton, Freddie Webster, young Miles, Red Rodney, Rex Stewart, Red Allen, Hot Lips Page, and of course the one, the only, the greatest thing that jazz has ever produced..... Charles Christopher Parker

All done off the top of my head, no Wiki, honest......

Chris LaBarbera
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Rich here about the whole high note/high register thing. It's just that my outlook on what constitutes the high note/scream register is probably broader than most people. I consider low F# to G above double C to be the normal trumpet playing range where music can be made. I've never been interested in trying to play higher than that myself and I'm not interested in listening to it either. I grew up listening to Dizzy as a kid..then got into Kenny Wheeler..besides all the other greats.. I think the reason I'm comfortable improvising up in the 'doubles' is because I look at the trumpet range this way.

These days I probably spend the majority of my time listening to Chet 70's-80's and Woody..My ipod in my car is packed up with these cats..well..also Lee Morgan..Kenny Wheeler...some free jazz cats..and of course a lot of Trane...and any new players I hear on gigs that I dig.. Best, Lex

p.s. - Chris, been playing Dance of the Infidels and Boperation a lot on my gigs.. Trying to get the cats on my Fri night gig to play Thermo!
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lex,

How are you liking that double cup?

Thats something that I always wanted to try but never got around to.

Are yours just stock Pardubas? with stock rims.

Chris
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's pretty nice..but it's just holding me over until I get my new custom tops..Was talking with Kenny a few days ago and got a 10MCW and a 10W with a Johnny Hodges underpart coming...and a J30 backbore..

The 3.5 gets a nice full sound though..I'm really finding with my thin lips that a wider rim and a small enough diameter makes all the difference to me with my playing..so I am staying around .600. If I go much smaller, the sound gets smaller..if I go bigger, my chops start to lose range and endurance... between .590-.610 the sound is BIG..so that's the range I need..along with the wider rim..

This 3.5 is an older one so the rim isn't quite as sharp..but still too sharp for me..It's a stock model. I got my teaching gig in awhile at a college here in Queens and I'll be giving it a run in the big band to see how it goes..
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
It's pretty nice..but it's just holding me over until I get my new custom tops..Was talking with Kenny a few days ago and got a 10MCW and a 10W with a Johnny Hodges underpart coming...and a J30 backbore..

The 3.5 gets a nice full sound though..I'm really finding with my thin lips that a wider rim and a small enough diameter makes all the difference to me with my playing..so I am staying around .600. If I go much smaller, the sound gets smaller..if I go bigger, my chops start to lose range and endurance... between .590-.610 the sound is BIG..so that's the range I need..along with the wider rim..

This 3.5 is an older one so the rim isn't quite as sharp..but still too sharp for me..It's a stock model. I got my teaching gig in awhile at a college here in Queens and I'll be giving it a run in the big band to see how it goes..


I find this interesting because it does sound like it corresponds to some of what is written on the stork website in case you're curious:

http://storkcustom.com/the-basics-of-rim-shape-and-cup-shape/
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. Their book, Understanding the Mouthpiece, is great. Should be a must read for all trumpet players!
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love hearing from such great players!

Keeping all this in step with Doc's teaching, I think that LN's idea may be not too far from how my chops worked in my first years of playing. I know anytime I'd try to buzz, the aperture was wider than the mpc., and it was still that way when I took my first lesson with Dave Sheetz. Dave got me straightened out pretty quickly, and gave me his estimation of what he thought my embouchure would be capable of with some time spent with diligent practice per Reinhardt. I was happy with that idea, and happy to report that time has proven him right!

Now my buzzing looks as Doc described, with an aperture more like a pinpoint. I still can't buzz nearly as high as Dave does effortlessly, but who can?

My understanding of the two embouchure functions, Doc's vs Lynn's, is I would have to choose one or the other.

Very interested to hear if anyone can say anything about Doc having mentioned this 'unfurling,' concept, (as either a good or bad thing) or another question posed in this thread, about tone cutting out at the extreme of our upper register and how to stop that. My main "technique" to date to prevent that is more air power forcing the lips open enough to vibrate, or less chop compression so as to allow the existing airstream to cause vibration. I'm sure we all have to balance those two, but did Doc mention any other variables to help "eradicate this playing evil?"
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per Reinhardt a piano note is the same aperture size as the forte an octave higher.
About the closest to unfurling you could probably get is to say a pia o low C is a similar aperture maybe to a FFFFF double C which is what most people seem to be aiming for with range.

On a slightly different note to play loud high parts, a lot of players consciously open up the chops like you're talking about. Wayne Bergeron mentioned it in a video on YouTube. I think as the mouthpiece gets shallower with more 'compression' your aperture can become less compressed (more spread) without any real detriment or without having to use more mouthpiece pressure.
Well, okay, the detriment is that you lose control and focus on the softs. But you don't use a 6A4A or whatever to play Hummel Trumpet concerto so everyone's okay in the end haha
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:


On a slightly different note to play loud high parts, a lot of players consciously open up the chops


When I took lessons with Dave Sheetz, I specifically asked him about this concept. His reaction was clearer than clear: this is specifically anathema, and reacted to my query as though I were crazy.

Not saying it doesn't work for anybody, ever; just that it is (apparently) opposed to Doc's teachings, which is the only "stuff" that has ever advised my playing w/o messing me all up, and has actually spurred me on to real progress.
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