Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:18 pm Post subject: Tips for high range improvement? High School player
I'm a senior in high school, and I started trumpet in 6th grade, about 2 years later than the rest of the trumpet players in my grade. This year in band we're playing Festive Overture by Shostakovich. I'm the only one in the 11/12 band playing 1st trumpet for this song, everyone else playing 1st is a sophomore. While I know the 4th part is harder technically, I don't have high range consistency, and for me the song stays in the upper register of my range for the entire song. Normally my range would be comfortably up to a G, normally I can play an A fine but I have off days. After an A though I struggle, it's like there's a wall almost. I can play A fine, and then I struggle hitting a B and usually can't hit it, Bb is on and off. I feel like over the years my range has gotten worse. Everyone I ask for help with range always tells me range isn't important and I shouldn't focus on it, no one ever gives me any tips to improve it. I was hoping someone could give me some tips. I've heard of the pencil trick before, although haven't really tried it. I tend to naturally frown when I play, which apparently means I have to work harder to hit higher notes. I'm currently playing on a Yamaha 14B4 mouthpiece. If anyone could help it would be much appreciated, I need to be able to play this song. I have a lot of confidence issues, so not being able to play the song and constantly missing notes causes me to become really embarrassed and sometimes basically have an emotional breakdown. Thanks!
If you're a senior in high school and you're struggling with a Bb something is very wrong. Nothing is easy on trumpet. You have to know what to do and practice it diligently. I suggest that you start by acquiring knowledge about how the chops work. Clint "Pops" McLaughlin has many publications on this topic. Also, you can take skype lessons from "Pops." He is a true "chop doctor" who will be able to diagnose problems and prescribe remedies quickly once he hears/sees you play. Look him up on the internet, contact him and give yourself the chance to stop struggling. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Yamaha 14B is a pretty good mouthpiece. As I see young trumpet players typically play the C cup or larger. Like why handicap yourself?
Choosing shallower cups to gain an edge in range/endurance/power is often a contentious issue around trumpet players. Yet I have no problem suggesting shallower and in some cases smaller inside rim dimensions. Softer inner rim bite is helpful too however at this point the only things available in rounded inner edge rims are custom jobs. Usually these more rounded inner rim bites are only available on really shallow pieces. This fact being part of the reason I started alteriing and making my own pieces.
About the only naysayers to shallow mouthpiece use are people who already have good range on larger pieces. That or those who haven't tried them.
Careful though! Mouthpiece changes are best made in small graduations. Especially when going shallower. However going too large can kill your endurance too. That and provide few if any benefits.
Musician 415,
Here's an idea: If you don't mind trying out a non plated mouthpiece? I will happily make you something a tad shallower thsn your 14B. All you gotta do is pay the freight. Im a retiree and like to help others. The thing I specialize in are softer or more rounded inner rim edges. As well as shallower cups but with very open back bores and throats. This can totally mitigate the tinniness in sound the shallow cup can cause. Contact me via private message if interested.
Sorry, I don't plate mouthpieces at present. As Im offering this service free to you I hope this isn't a violation of some advertizement rule on TH. I can't offer unlimited support to everyone this way but once in a while I do try.
Long ago I found that the cat who is able to play longer
In his upper register is the one who improves the fastest. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Musician 415:
I can see that you have an immediate problem and you're looking for a quick fix. There are a couple quick things you can try.
(1) Keep your current mp, there is nothing wrong with it.
(2) Attack the higher notes with a lower dynamic (p or mp). This will enable them to speak with more confidence.
(3) Use tongue arch on the higher notes. "Eee" sylable
Finally, get thee to a private teacher and have some lessons as soon as possible. Good luck !
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Tips for high range improvement? High School player
Musician415 wrote:
I'm a senior in high school, and I started trumpet in 6th grade, about 2 years later than the rest of the trumpet players in my grade. This year in band we're playing Festive Overture by Shostakovich. I'm the only one in the 11/12 band playing 1st trumpet for this song, everyone else playing 1st is a sophomore. While I know the 4th part is harder technically, I don't have high range consistency, and for me the song stays in the upper register of my range for the entire song. Normally my range would be comfortably up to a G, normally I can play an A fine but I have off days. After an A though I struggle, it's like there's a wall almost. I can play A fine, and then I struggle hitting a B and usually can't hit it, Bb is on and off. I feel like over the years my range has gotten worse. Everyone I ask for help with range always tells me range isn't important and I shouldn't focus on it, no one ever gives me any tips to improve it. I was hoping someone could give me some tips. I've heard of the pencil trick before, although haven't really tried it. I tend to naturally frown when I play, which apparently means I have to work harder to hit higher notes. I'm currently playing on a Yamaha 14B4 mouthpiece. If anyone could help it would be much appreciated, I need to be able to play this song. I have a lot of confidence issues, so not being able to play the song and constantly missing notes causes me to become really embarrassed and sometimes basically have an emotional breakdown. Thanks!
James Morrison played for many years on a 14B4 mouthpiece. His current mouthpiece is the same thing but with a special sleeve around it that makes it look a bit different, but is otherwise the same mouthpiece.
Honestly, if you're struggling with range below a High D on a 14B4 it's because you either haven't worked on your range much, don't practice a good balance of stuff including Lip Trills and Flow Studies, or you need a better teacher.
Last edited by Trumpetingbynurture on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:17 am Post subject:
The life of a trumpet player includes times when a music director will hand out a piece of music that's extremely difficult to play, too hard for the group, and probably shouldn't be performed by them.
When you're in that situation, you should do the best you can with what you've got, but above all, take care of yourself. Don't hurt yourself by struggling and straining, using excessive mouthpiece pressure and trying to play past the point of exhaustion. They won't hang a memorial plaque in your honor on the band room wall if you destroy your chops. First, do no harm.
You need some survival strategies. Here are a few suggestions. First, listen to some recordings to get the music in your head. Then practice the piece at home down an octave, not too loud, slowly with a metronome. Get the intervals, fingerings, articulation patterns and phrasing in your head. Gradually pick up the tempo while playing as accurately and as comfortably as you can.
Next, practice short segments in the octave they're written. Use sufficient air compression and support, but don't play louder than you have to. Above all, don't try to keep your embouchure together by pressing the mouthpiece harder. If your embouchure blows open and you crack a note, stop and rest. Practice this piece this way every day, along with your other practice material, with plenty of rest. Don't wear yourself down.
You might also want to discuss this piece with your fellow trumpet players. You could work out an arrangement where you split into groups and trade off playing phrases to give yourselves more rest.
Eventually, either you'll develop your playing to the point where you can perform this piece successfully, or the band director will realize this piece was a bad idea and set it aside for something else. If you follow these steps, you should survive either way. Good luck. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Also, try playing the entire piece at a lower dynamic level in class and at home. Most fatigue comes from how loud you are trying to play. Another good idea is to give yourself an optional note to play in the difficult places of the music. Just look at the score or 2nd trumpet part and pencil in their note in any place that's difficult. That way if you feel fatigue, you have something to play instead of stopping or missing all together.
You're not alone. Every trumpet player has had difficulty with range or endurance on something at some point in their life. _________________ Bb 8310Z
FL Conn V1
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Tips for high range improvement? High School player
This sounds like a lack of positive resistance or compression. I suggest trying a RS Berkeley Clark Terry mouthpiece. It has a medium V-cup, 10.5 diameter and Giardinelli 3 backbore which is very efficient and easy to play not to mention Maynard Ferguson and Clark Terry used that backbore for much of their careers. Sometimes when the backbore, cup diameter, cup or cup shape is incorrect or too big for that player, a player does not develop a balanced embouchure simply because there is not enough positive resistance to do so.
Practice slowly.
Practice Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing.
Practice Caruso's 6 note exercise.
Practice exercises from the Schlossberg book.
What horn are you playing on?
Musician415 wrote:
I'm a senior in high school, and I started trumpet in 6th grade, about 2 years later than the rest of the trumpet players in my grade. This year in band we're playing Festive Overture by Shostakovich. I'm the only one in the 11/12 band playing 1st trumpet for this song, everyone else playing 1st is a sophomore. While I know the 4th part is harder technically, I don't have high range consistency, and for me the song stays in the upper register of my range for the entire song. Normally my range would be comfortably up to a G, normally I can play an A fine but I have off days. After an A though I struggle, it's like there's a wall almost. I can play A fine, and then I struggle hitting a B and usually can't hit it, Bb is on and off. I feel like over the years my range has gotten worse. Everyone I ask for help with range always tells me range isn't important and I shouldn't focus on it, no one ever gives me any tips to improve it. I was hoping someone could give me some tips. I've heard of the pencil trick before, although haven't really tried it. I tend to naturally frown when I play, which apparently means I have to work harder to hit higher notes. I'm currently playing on a Yamaha 14B4 mouthpiece. If anyone could help it would be much appreciated, I need to be able to play this song. I have a lot of confidence issues, so not being able to play the song and constantly missing notes causes me to become really embarrassed and sometimes basically have an emotional breakdown. Thanks!
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:35 pm Post subject:
If you feel like you're losing range then there's probably something unbalanced in your daily routine, that's assuming you have a daily routine. If you don't have a quality daily routine, get one.
For me when things go south it's because I'm out of balance. Too much emphasis in one area can starve another. Paradoxically, when I practice range too much I usually lose some. Make sure that you limit you range studies and balance them with long tones, flexibility, and low range.
And FWIW, I got FA foisted on me at a local community college just a rehearsal or two before a big performance, and that piece kicked me around quite a bit too. It's a blow. Back off, don't be a hero. Tacet where you can. Share the part if you can and have the other player cover the ensemble stuff. Save yourself for where it matters most. Most importantly, have fun with it. It's a great piece of music and it's very gratifying to play. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:42 pm Post subject: Tips for high range development
Musician415,
Its frustrating to be that guy who has no limited range. Just as its frustrating to be that guy playing fourth part, or whomgets chosen last for pick-up basketball. In my experience, which spanned two decades, range is a skill, and it takes serious time and dedication. I started playing in third or fourth grade, and always played on a 7C mouthpiece, all the way through high school. In college I switched to a Jet-tone model for marching band, which gave me the ability to peal a double-C on top of a 150-piece marching band, and to play lead in yhe top jazz band for the entire time in college. I then played for three or four years professionally after college, but eventually quit playing. Now here's the other side. I practiced three hours every day, for years. That gave me flexibility and stamina, and with those came the range. I think there was also something physiological that I had that others didn't. But more than anything, it was the hours of practice. There's an old technique book called Total Range which was given to me very early on. And it stresses that in order to play high, you must be able to play low first. Listen to technique seminars by guys like Allen Vizzutti and Jeff Tyzek, and of course Doc. It takes hours and hours, and tremendous commitment. Thats what eventually did it for me - I didn't have the time to practice somthat Imcould play how I wanted to, and when Imstarted missing those double-D's and E's, then the C's, then B's and A's, I knew my time was over. Keep at it, and practice, practice, practice... _________________ Thanks,
SJ
Thank you everyone for all your replies and suggestions. I'll be looking into everything everyone has said. I've also discussed this with my jazz band director, who's a trombone player, and I'm going to be working with my band director on college auditions and he's a trumpet player so he should be able to also provide some assistance. We only have 5 trumpet players in our junior/senior band, but I discussed with one of them, and he's given me a few suggestions, as well as helped play a few of the parts that have longer higher notes. Part of the problem is I was never taught how to properly practice, I had to teach myself a lot of things in my earlier years of playing. I'll be using the suggestions from my teacher, as well as all the help I've received here to help myself improve, and hopefully be able to play most if not all of the song _________________ Female trumpet player here, who plans on becoming a music major
Musician415
That's great that your're going to pursue lessons with your teachers. It's a fantastic first step. Just be aware that playing high notes (or really any part of the range) has a lot to do with technique, not just adding pressure and hoping for the best. Good luck!
Musician 415:
I can see that you have an immediate problem and you're looking for a quick fix. There are a couple quick things you can try.
(1) Keep your current mp, there is nothing wrong with it.
(2) Attack the higher notes with a lower dynamic (p or mp). This will enable them to speak with more confidence.
(3) Use tongue arch on the higher notes. "Eee" sylable
Finally, get thee to a private teacher and have some lessons as soon as possible. Good luck !
Agreed
There may be a vicious circle, loss of range leading to tension and over blowing trying to force the notes out that you know you have.
Forcing the notes out leading to loss of range, leading to more tension leading to more forcing and harder blowing trying to recover your range.
Your range is eroded over time and there seems no way forward.
Relax follow the excellent advice to use lower dynamics. If I am right in what I suspect, you will notice a sudden improvement in range, you had the talent all along you just over blew and when you relax the notes will start to pop out..
Thank you everyone for all your replies and suggestions. I'll be looking into everything everyone has said. I've also discussed this with my jazz band director, who's a trombone player, and I'm going to be working with my band director on college auditions and he's a trumpet player so he should be able to also provide some assistance. We only have 5 trumpet players in our junior/senior band, but I discussed with one of them, and he's given me a few suggestions, as well as helped play a few of the parts that have longer higher notes. Part of the problem is I was never taught how to properly practice, I had to teach myself a lot of things in my earlier years of playing. I'll be using the suggestions from my teacher, as well as all the help I've received here to help myself improve, and hopefully be able to play most if not all of the song
Thank you everyone for all your replies and suggestions. I'll be looking into everything everyone has said. I've also discussed this with my jazz band director, who's a trombone player, and I'm going to be working with my band director on college auditions and he's a trumpet player so he should be able to also provide some assistance. We only have 5 trumpet players in our junior/senior band, but I discussed with one of them, and he's given me a few suggestions, as well as helped play a few of the parts that have longer higher notes. Part of the problem is I was never taught how to properly practice, I had to teach myself a lot of things in my earlier years of playing. I'll be using the suggestions from my teacher, as well as all the help I've received here to help myself improve, and hopefully be able to play most if not all of the song
Maynard wisely said,
"Choose the system with the fewest rules"
I try and incorpórate this into my own playing and the ideas and advice I offer.
Also, no teacher can give away something which he doesnt have. My high school band teacher had a useable douvle C abd more. He was a difficult man to work for but ultimately I learned much from him.
Also, apply logic to your studies. Develop critical thinking or C/T. Which is learned by asking the right questions. Some of the questions I asked myself were,
"What mouthpieces do the pros use for high notes?
"How can I make graduated changes in mouthpiece selection in order to make the job of high notes easier and musical".
There are other questions out there too. But we must look for them. Trumpet playing is not immune to the laws of physics. Conversely we develop quickly when our minds focus on matterd which take advantage of physics.
Most trumpet players, probably 98% of them have embouchured and or breathing patterns which work against physical law.
So we have a choice,
Remain among the desperate 98 percent. Usually for life.
Or incorporate physical law to our advantage. And join the 2%.
While its a seeming no-brainer you would be surprised at how many will turn down the right advice. And remain stunted for life. Oddly it is this weak 98% who try and advise me lol. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Play quieter. Esp in the low and mid register. Glissandi octaves pp. _________________ Maestro Arturo Sandoval on Barkley Microphones!
https://youtu.be/iLVMRvw5RRk
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Tips for high range improvement? High School player
Arjuna wrote:
This sounds like a lack of positive resistance or compression. I suggest trying a RS Berkeley Clark Terry mouthpiece. It has a medium V-cup, 10.5 diameter and Giardinelli 3 backbore which is very efficient and easy to play not to mention Maynard Ferguson and Clark Terry used that backbore for much of their careers. Sometimes when the backbore, cup diameter, cup or cup shape is incorrect or too big for that player, a player does not develop a balanced embouchure simply because there is not enough positive resistance to do so.
Practice slowly.
Practice Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing.
Practice Caruso's 6 note exercise.
Practice exercises from the Schlossberg book.
What horn are you playing on?
Musician415 wrote:
I'm a senior in high school, and I started trumpet in 6th grade, about 2 years later than the rest of the trumpet players in my grade. This year in band we're playing Festive Overture by Shostakovich. I'm the only one in the 11/12 band playing 1st trumpet for this song, everyone else playing 1st is a sophomore. While I know the 4th part is harder technically, I don't have high range consistency, and for me the song stays in the upper register of my range for the entire song. Normally my range would be comfortably up to a G, normally I can play an A fine but I have off days. After an A though I struggle, it's like there's a wall almost. I can play A fine, and then I struggle hitting a B and usually can't hit it, Bb is on and off. I feel like over the years my range has gotten worse. Everyone I ask for help with range always tells me range isn't important and I shouldn't focus on it, no one ever gives me any tips to improve it. I was hoping someone could give me some tips. I've heard of the pencil trick before, although haven't really tried it. I tend to naturally frown when I play, which apparently means I have to work harder to hit higher notes. I'm currently playing on a Yamaha 14B4 mouthpiece. If anyone could help it would be much appreciated, I need to be able to play this song. I have a lot of confidence issues, so not being able to play the song and constantly missing notes causes me to become really embarrassed and sometimes basically have an emotional breakdown. Thanks!
I usually try to stay out of these kinds of discussions, simply because without seeing and hearing the student I think making a diagnosis is pretty difficult.
But, and this is just my opinion, without seeing and hearing the student I'd be surprised if this has a lot to do with the mouthpiece or the horn, and because Maynard Ferguson or Clark Terry used certain equipment doesn't mean someone else will do well with it. Guys like those two were at a level that most of us will never get close to, regardless of equipment.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
You need help from somebody that can see you and address specific issues. With the right approach you will see improvement in weeks. But, it's really hard (and frustrating) to do by yourself.
Pops is a great teacher. So is John Mohan (Chicago). They both Skype. You can find them both here on the TH.
Call John or Pops. Good luck! _________________ Scott Kuehn
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Tips for high range improvement? High School player
Musician415 wrote:
I'm a senior in high school, and I started trumpet in 6th grade, about 2 years later than the rest of the trumpet players in my grade. This year in band we're playing Festive Overture by Shostakovich. I'm the only one in the 11/12 band playing 1st trumpet for this song, everyone else playing 1st is a sophomore. While I know the 4th part is harder technically, I don't have high range consistency, and for me the song stays in the upper register of my range for the entire song. Normally my range would be comfortably up to a G, normally I can play an A fine but I have off days. After an A though I struggle, it's like there's a wall almost. I can play A fine, and then I struggle hitting a B and usually can't hit it, Bb is on and off. I feel like over the years my range has gotten worse. Everyone I ask for help with range always tells me range isn't important and I shouldn't focus on it, no one ever gives me any tips to improve it. I was hoping someone could give me some tips. I've heard of the pencil trick before, although haven't really tried it. I tend to naturally frown when I play, which apparently means I have to work harder to hit higher notes. I'm currently playing on a Yamaha 14B4 mouthpiece. If anyone could help it would be much appreciated, I need to be able to play this song. I have a lot of confidence issues, so not being able to play the song and constantly missing notes causes me to become really embarrassed and sometimes basically have an emotional breakdown. Thanks!
You sound a lot like me when I was in High School. You should read this:
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
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