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Winghorn
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Location: Olympia, Washington
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 Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: Tongue Between Lips |
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I just finished watching some YouTube clips of Doc Severinsen, James Morrison and others. I noticed that many times, just before setting the mouthpiece on their lips, these players stick their tongues between their lips and into the mouthpiece cup. I have never done this. Is this to ensure that the lips are not too close together in mouthpiece? To form an aperture? To wet the lips? All of the above?
I tried doing this and it seemed my articulation got a little cleaner. I sometimes have a problem with my lower lip rolling into the mouthpiece and slightly under my upper lip when I get tired. This thins my tone and makes me want to go sharp. Would using my tongue to open my lips a little when placing the mouthpiece on my chops be a good idea? I find doing "lip bends" to be helpful in keeping my lower lip in place, but wonder about using the tongue as many top players seem to do.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Steve |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen lots of players stick their tongue through the lips just prior to setting the mouthpiece. I've never thought that the tongue was actively creating an aperture that would persist after the mouthpiece comes into contact. I always assumed that it just wet the center of the lips. Some guys roll their lips in when they stick out the tongue resulting in the most of the lips getting wet which would help folks who like playing with wet lips against the rim.
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VetPsychWars
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Harry James did that too.
I think it was a combination of wetting and setting the emboucure on the mouthpiece.
Whatever it was, it must have been a popular technique from the 20s into the 30s.
Perhaps Mr Scodwell will know?
Tom
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Craig Swartz
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Claude Gordon mentioned this at several clinics I attended over the years. Actually, if one is using a forward, raised tongue, placing it between the lips just prior to playing doesn't put it all that far out of normal playing position. I doubt the good players are actually using that tongue position you are describing to actually articulate... |
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I've always thought that people did this if they needed to play with a very wet embouchure.
I've seen a lot of great players do it though. Some bad ones too!
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Tongue Between Lips |
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| Winghorn wrote: | | I noticed that many times, just before setting the mouthpiece on their lips, these players stick their tongues between their lips and into the mouthpiece cup. I have never done this. Is this to ensure that the lips are not too close together in mouthpiece? To form an aperture? To wet the lips? All of the above |
Bill Knevitt, a devoted student of Claude Gordon passed this along to his students:
"Just before you play, stick your tongue into the cup of the mouthpiece. (Then articulate with the tongue inside your mouth, as usual.) This habit will accomplish two things. Keeping the lip moist, and it will keep the aperture from pinching together.
Also, keep this in mind:
""When is comes to playing high notes or any note for that matter, if the lips are together you have a prayer. If you pull them apart you have nothing but air."
Additionally:
Try keeping the mouthpiece high on the upper lip. (Approximately 2/3 upper lip & 1/3 lower.) How high or low you place the mouthpiece does matter . Whether it is off to the side or in the center doesn't. 90% of embouchure corrections that teachers make is because the students mpc. was placed too low.
It is reported that "Doc" Severinsen said, "The day Harry James told me to place more upper lip in the mouthpiece is the day everything changed for the better."
And:
Don't Smile! Your mouthpiece is hard, your teeth are hard, and your lip is smashed right in the middle. If you draw the lips back in the smiling position, you will end up with a weak, thin tone, a lack of endurance, and a awfully sore lip.
Instead, the lips should draw towards the mouthpiece as you ascend and relax as you descend. The degree to which this happens depends on the shape and thickness of your lips, and the note you are playing. Allow the muscles surrounding the lips to contract towards the mouthpiece as you ascend and relax as you descend. Keep in mind that the lip is like the sail on a sailboat. It may be strong, it may be flexible, and it may be durable, but it cannot work if there is no wind.
Claude Gordon said publicly concerning Bill, "I have never had a student who understands how to teach trumpet as does Bill Knevitt."
Larry
6 Year William B. Knevitt Student
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Winghorn
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wonderful post, Larry. Thank you.
Steve |
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Winghorn wrote: | Wonderful post, Larry. Thank you.
Steve |
Thanks Steve and best wishes for your continued success on trumpet.
Larry
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https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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SMrtn
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Since reading this thread, I've started doing this every time before I play, and it is making my life easier. Great thread. |
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VetPsychWars
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Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Tongue Between Lips |
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| solo soprano wrote: |
Try keeping the mouthpiece high on the upper lip. (Approximately 2/3 upper lip & 1/3 lower.) How high or low you place the mouthpiece does matter . Whether it is off to the side or in the center doesn't. 90% of embouchure corrections that teachers make is because the students mpc. was placed too low.
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I wonder what's different with me... I'm a complete failure if I follow this advice.
By feel, I am as far down as I can get. I admit in the mirror it looks about 50/50, maybe a touch higher.
Tom
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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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Winghorn
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Tom-
Not everyone plays with a high mouthpiece setting. I saw a picture of Doc Severinsen using an embouchure visualizer, and he was about one third top and two thirds bottom lip in the cup. Wynton Marsalis appears to have very little upper lip in the mouthpiece while performing. I am a little over 50-50 with slightly less top lip than bottom in the mouthpiece, for whatever that is worth. Avoiding extremes either way is probably the best advice.
Steve |
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Winghorn
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think in the above Severinsen quote that Doc meant more upper lip than lower, just more upper lip than he had been using.
In one of his clinics on YouTube, Doc relates that when he first started playing in a big band, he found that the lower he placed the mouthpiece, the higher he could play. He carried this to an extreme, however, and eventually lost his lip. Subsequent lessons with Benny Baker put him back on track.
In a recent YouTube clip of Doc playing A Night in Tunisia, there are closeups of the mouthpiece imprints on his lips after playing that clearly show him using 1/3 or less upper lip in the mouthpiece.
Interesting to me...
Steve |
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Arjuna
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Mouthpiece placement depends on the structure of the mouth and teeth.
Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing will establish a natural placement for the mouthpiece. |
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VetPsychWars
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Arjuna wrote: | Mouthpiece placement depends on the structure of the mouth and teeth.
Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing will establish a natural placement for the mouthpiece. |
Interesting. A lotlotlot of lip slurs will do that too. 
Glad I found my better placement.
Tom
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1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
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Mike Sailors
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Location: Austin/New York City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Tongue Between Lips |
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| VetPsychWars wrote: | | solo soprano wrote: |
Try keeping the mouthpiece high on the upper lip. (Approximately 2/3 upper lip & 1/3 lower.) How high or low you place the mouthpiece does matter . Whether it is off to the side or in the center doesn't. 90% of embouchure corrections that teachers make is because the students mpc. was placed too low.
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I wonder what's different with me... I'm a complete failure if I follow this advice.
By feel, I am as far down as I can get. I admit in the mirror it looks about 50/50, maybe a touch higher.
Tom |
Well, it's REALLY bad advice, so don't beat yourself up too bad.
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Winghorn
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it is necessarily bad advice, only that it may not work for everyone.
Steve |
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Shifty
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Winghorn wrote: | I don't think it is necessarily bad advice, only that it may not work for everyone.
Steve |
That's a good summary of about 45% of what gets posted. Another 45% isn't necessarily good advice because it may not work for every one. The other 10% (long tones and lip slurs) are the exception. 
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Arjuna
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| Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed.
Irons are my favorite.
| VetPsychWars wrote: | | Arjuna wrote: | Mouthpiece placement depends on the structure of the mouth and teeth.
Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing will establish a natural placement for the mouthpiece. |
Interesting. A lotlotlot of lip slurs will do that too.
Glad I found my better placement.
Tom |
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Winghorn wrote: | I don't think it is necessarily bad advice, only that it may not work for everyone.
Steve |
Thanks! When it comes to the trumpet that's the rule
Why should the mouthpiece be placed "high" on the upper lip?
Because the upper lip is the main source of vibration. The lower lip, along with the tongue and jaw, is the main source of flexibility. The advantages are since the upper lip is the more stationary of the two, you will develop a strong, secure feeling of placement. And there being more upper lip in the mouthpiece to vibrate, you will get a bigger vibration, resulting in a bigger sound. And you will have more endurance because you have more "muscle" in the mouthpiece. (It has been proven that a bigger muscle is stronger than a smaller one.)
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https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music |
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Arjuna
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Wynton Marsalis is about 1/3 top lip and 2/3 bottom lip.
He is one of the greatest trumpet players of all time.
Natural placement is more important than saying it is better to be 2/3 top lip.
Imagine if Wynton had to play 2/3 top lip.
He certainly would not be the same Wynton Marsalis. |
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