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rim bite regarding soft palying and clear attacks



 
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:49 am    Post subject: rim bite regarding soft palying and clear attacks Reply with quote

Since working with TCE I found that a sharper bite inside the rim than let's say a MF style rim (highest alpha angle, seemingly no bite) is better for doing dynamics and clear attacks as well.

A higher alpha angel for me tends to give more overtones and a brighter sound which could hardly be modified whereas a lower alpha angel tends to give more choice in changing tone colours.

I came to this after a couple of days comparing a Callet X5 mouthpiece with a Civiletti TCE3, the latter with a sharper bite.

I wondered too that in the past playing MF mouthpieces I needed more pressure to seal the rim and therefore got restricted dynamic abilities....

What do you think about please?
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play on a TCE3 most days, and I also mess with a Warburton MF quite a lot. Unfortunately I have not got an X5 to compare to the TCE3.

I find the MF cup generally harder to control but it definitely has similar properties in that it shuts you down if you go for quantity of air over compression.

The MF-style mouthpiece does allow (or even encourage) your lips to fall into the cup, which Jerry would say is a bad thing.

I find fast articulations much harder on the MF so it's good for practise in that respect. Going back to normal afterwards makes things feel much easier, which is why I still mess with it.

As for dynamic range... I generally find the MF louder, but that's at the expense of the softer dynamics rather than in addition to... I do put this down to the rim, as you suggest, because it lets the lips go into a position where soft note production is difficult.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shakuhachi:

Do you have any thoughts/experience about mouthpieces that have a drop for "chop space"? I have a Jet-tone 1-D and a Warburton 8SV, both of which have a very low alpha angle because there's a vertical drop after the rim. The cups are, however, very shallow. Best of both worlds? That's probably why there are quite a few pieces on the market like this.
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....I own several narrow and shallow "dropped" V-Cups: Warburton WCC and LynnFlex from Stomvi USA.

When I compare them with my current TCE3 the latter offers the greatest drop down design and a more pronounced inner rim edge as well. Lynn told me that the first .100 inches of the inner rim are most critical. His reversed rim tool offers on one side a more convex design within this tolerance and on the other a more concave design.

In my early MF mouthpiece years I was a strict opponent of the "dropped" feature. Today I appreciate this kind of design more and more when it comes to a more mellow sound and better attacks. I think the MF like sloping of the rim into the cup supports the unfurling of the lips which supports the MF like approach. Anyway one needs more force to seal the lips with the rim: Maynard used a lot of force here.....

My oppinion is switching back and forth about a decision what is better: high or low alpha angle. Currently I decide for more low.

Please see my latest post on "Callet vs. MF" as well.

best and Marry Christmas!
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I think I pretty much agree. I like the MF types, but I'm not sure it helps with a TCE-style embouchure.

Merry Christmas to you too!
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...after long experiments with the TCE 3 and Callet X5 I moved back to my dream team:



....left the NICHOLSON XPIECE with convex v-Cup, a bit smaller and shallower then the MF Jet-Tone but a bit more grip with a #23 bore. Id is about .600 inch.

...right the Stomvi LynnFlex mouthpiece. It is basically like a Schilke 6a4a Piece with a MF GH rim a bit shallower and narrower. Stomvi measured it .561 Inch ID (14.26 mm) but that is not like it feel (feels greater). Bore is about #25.

Since I changed to TCE I investigate what should be better regarding rim bite. I found the best for TCE for me now is the LynnFlex because it delivers more bite to anchor the lips correctly when playing with the forward tongue between the teeth. Using a MF like no bite mouthpiece it is very difficult to maintain the lips correctly in the rim when articulating TCE like.

I would compare the LYnnFlex to be optical very close to the new Callet Superchops 1ss mouthpiece.

Regarding ease of playing the XPIECE is outstanding because of the convex cup entry which supports the unfurling of the lips organically in the right amount (it is shallow enough to not allow too much lipp protruding) but articulation is very tricky. The latter works better with the LynnFlex.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting pictures! I've got an XPIECE myself so that makes it easier to see relative differences as a point of reference. I wonder how the Lynnflex compares to an X5 or the JAZZ. I'd love to get my hands on either of those old pieces.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
Interesting pictures! I've got an XPIECE myself so that makes it easier to see relative differences as a point of reference. I wonder how the Lynnflex compares to an X5 or the JAZZ. I'd love to get my hands on either of those old pieces.


Some of the older Callet mouthpieces for me, were much more comfortable than the modern SC series. Back in the 90s I had a couple different X5s. My favorite was an X5-F ( flatter rim) Jerry made with a 28 hole.

The rims were less sharp, and more cushioned. Nice soft, but defined inside bite. Callet's mouthpieces were never overly bright. I think the slight V cup, open backbores, and heavier blanks gave those small pieces more core. They were LOUD but never bright.

My favorite pieces were the X5-F and one marked CHASE I had about 15 years ago or so. I sold/gave away a huge collection of mouthpieces I had years ago. I never should have made that choice, as I have an itch every now and then, to play some of those older Callet pieces.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting stuff! I think the TCE#3 that Bahb sells has a lot of core like you describe - its much less "bright" than you'd expect from something that small. I've had an old SOLO before as well (standard blank) and that thing has fat low notes
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Interesting pictures! I've got an XPIECE myself so that makes it easier to see relative differences as a point of reference. I wonder how the Lynnflex compares to an X5 or the JAZZ. I'd love to get my hands on either of those old pieces.


The LynnFlex is a little bigger diameter and much brighter than the JAZZ and brighter than the X5. The JAZZ and X5 are very similar as far as rim feel. I don't have the X5 anymore (or the LynnFlex actually) but I remember comparing the X5 and JAZZ back to back. Remember that Callet measures his diameters further down into the cup than most manufacturers - I think by .035. So the Callet JAZZ and the X5 are both .600 diameters - like in Warburton/Curry-speak. The JAZZ rim is much like a Warburton 10W rim.

Anyway, if you like smaller diameters, the JAZZ is hard to beat as a small group jazz, classical, and darker commercial piece. I've experimented a lot of with different small group jazz mouthpieces, and I keep coming back to the JAZZ.

Hey Shak, I think you corrected me on another thread about the Stomvi GH and GHM.. I had it backwards.. Yeah, I think it's the GHM that's the .600 diameter and the GH is bigger. All the very best, Lex
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the SOLO piece was like somewhere between a .620-.630 - I could never get that same sweet sound out of the SOLO that I can get out of the JAZZ. The JAZZ just gets a great core to the sound..
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Shak, while the LynnFlex and the 1SS may be similar as far as diameter and rim, I think it's a very different configuration. The 1SS is going with the tight throat, very shallow flat-bottomed C cup approach, while the LynnFlex is going with the MF V style more open throat concept.

While I think it's definitely a good idea to make sure you can play an MF style piece well for the efficiency benefits, I really am not sure which style of mouthpiece is better for loud, high note type playing overall. Both configurations seem to work very well. As long as the rim is comfy on my chops - which, for me, means a smaller diameter (.610-.590) somewhat wider and a soft bite - then I find no problem switching back and forth between the two configurations quite easily. All the best, Lex
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Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: x5 availabilty Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
Interesting pictures! I've got an XPIECE myself so that makes it easier to see relative differences as a point of reference. I wonder how the Lynnflex compares to an X5 or the JAZZ. I'd love to get my hands on either of those old pieces.


I sent Jim New a good Buddy X5 to copy with the 27throat, I believe a .585 throat piece. Anyway Jim cut one as sent, one with a 29 throat and one with a 27 throat and his gap system. The copys with the 27 throat are spot on to the original, but the 29 plays a bit tight for me. I am considering a 25. But at any rate Jim has an exact copy of the X5 as made or adjustable gap. It is now my only mp and is great on both hi and low registers with a very full tone. this is a narrow mp, but not very shallow which helps me maintain the overtones.
Hope this helps you
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: x5 availabilty Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
I sent Jim New a good Buddy X5 to copy with the 27throat, I believe a .585 throat piece. Anyway Jim cut one as sent, one with a 29 throat and one with a 27 throat and his gap system. The copys with the 27 throat are spot on to the original, but the 29 plays a bit tight for me. I am considering a 25. But at any rate Jim has an exact copy of the X5 as made or adjustable gap. It is now my only mp and is great on both hi and low registers with a very full tone. this is a narrow mp, but not very shallow which helps me maintain the overtones.
Hope this helps you


It doesn't help my credit card!! hahaha. Good to know
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