I've heard him play Clark excercises up to Es and Fs above double C. But I've never heard him play a tune. There are claims that Jerry plays effortlessly and doesn't use pressure. However when I saw him play his face was red as an apple and he was tanking up huge gulps of air. The results were awesome, but no pressure and totally relaxed?? No way lol
I think there were a bunch of complaints and Callet was exiled from ITG events for a few years.
If one can call playing high notes exclusive of any other skill set to be "awesome".
I've never played one of his horns, from what I've heard they're supposed to be excellent.
Quote:
Did Mr. Callet ever play professionally with a band or any well-known performers?
To further answer this as far as I've been able to determine he has -0- professional playing resume'. Even his website bio doesn't list a single example of him in a performance situation. Apparently his story was that he was a completely frustrated player well into adulthood until he stumbled onto a way to play high.
The results were awesome, in the fact that Jerry played the loudest and most powerful double Cs and Ds I've ever heard. Jerry is more mad scientist than musician
Also, Jerry DID have his own big band in NYC for a short period, from stories I've heard from Jon Faddis. This was in the 70s or early 80s. Mostly Callet just playing Maynard tunes etc.
Another story shared was Jerry in the audience at the Vangaurd probably trying to sell his horns to players in between sets. Thad's band was short a trumpeter one night, and Jerry sat in on third trumpet as memory serves.
These stories are all hearsay from Faddis, but I can't see any reason for him to make hem up.
Also, Jerry DID have his own big band in NYC for a short period
Odd that he doesn't include it in his bio, also odd that there's no example of his playing to be found on his site.
Quote:
Another story shared was Jerry in the audience at the Vangaurd probably trying to sell his horns to players in between sets. Thad's band was short a trumpeter one night, and Jerry sat in on third trumpet as memory serves.
If it's the same story someone was relating on here not too long ago, I believe the rest of that story was his sitting in didn't go well. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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In that vid the cat playing the rotary trumpet is the only sound I like.
Jerry had a Superchops VHS from back in the 80s I've seen where he sounds MUCH better. I wonder if anybody has that anywhere.
In this YouTube vid Jerry doesn't play one solid note in any register. And why did he put a vid together with a new set up he's only been using one day?
You'd think he would have spent a little more time with it before making a teaching vid about it. Very odd. And the texts from the MSC book contradict much of what he says to do in this vid.
In that vid the cat playing the rotary trumpet is the only sound I like.
In the parts where he's doing the "spit buzz" he sounds brittle and blatty, not in any way what a symphonic player should be aiming for. It's not clear to me how anything Callet is doing with him helps his playing. Of course now he can say he "taught" Csaba Kelemen of the Dresden Philharmonic, even if the guy tosses everything Callet said in the trash can.
I wonder what Callet would sound like playing Stardust or Autumn leaves - just something simple, melodic, nothing over the staff. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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In that vid the cat playing the rotary trumpet is the only sound I like.
In the parts where he's doing the "spit buzz" he sounds brittle and blatty, not in any way what a symphonic player should be aiming for. It's not clear to me how anything Callet is doing with him helps his playing. Of course now he can say he "taught" Csaba Kelemen of the Dresden Philharmonic, even if the guy tosses everything Callet said in the trash can.
I wonder what Callet would sound like playing Stardust or Autumn leaves - just something simple, melodic, nothing over the staff.
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject:
Many of Jerry's most avid devotees often claim that Jerry's methods will enable a player to play the lead book in a big band for many hours at a time with a big, beautiful sound and without effort.
How can they know this, when even Jerry himself has never demonstrated the ability to do this in the real world? I mean, Lynn Nicholson, Wayne Bergeron and Stan Mark, to name just a few, have proven themselves capable of playing with best by actually have done so. None of these players, to my knowlege, uses Jerry's methods.
Other than possibly Mac Gollehon, are there TCE devotees who have actually played successfully in top level name bands? I mean, players who actually say they use Jerry's techniques, rather than ones who are alleged to by the TCE crowd?
I am not trying to be disrespectful to Jerry, whom many have said has helped them. It is just a little hard for me to accept all the claims made for Jerry's methods without some actual real-world proof.
I mean, being able to hit super-loud high notes during a demonstration is far cry from being able to play lead successfully in an upper-level big band.
Other than possibly Mac Gollehon, are there TCE devotees who have actually played successfully in top level name bands? I mean, players who actually say they use Jerry's techniques, rather than ones who are alleged to by the TCE crowd?]
Well, you can say this about any 'method' really, because it's still going to be a numbers game. Even if the method lets you play high notes all night long, that doesn't make you a good musician. It also doesn't guarantee you a job on a 'top level name band' even if you are both a good musician and have all the range and endurance you need because everyone who applies for those spots also has all of that. It's not like playing in the upper register gives you a guaranteed high-profile gig.
How many people has Bobby Shew taught and how many are now playing lead in a top-name band (who weren't doing so before going to Bobby) there's a few to be sure. Same goes for Roy Stevens and Cat Anderson etc. Both of them taught a bunch of students, and very few of them are sitting in those seats. Same goes for Pops or [Insert any name here] because being able to do the job and being able to do it better than every other person who applies for it are two different things. The first requires skill, the second requires skill and style.
There are guys like Drew Wilkie who used to post on here a fair bit. He was a young guy who had worked out the whole SuperChops thing for himself -- and he could play, but my understanding is that he didn't want to pursue it as a profession and either hung up the horn or just plays for fun now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMc8ZOB8kxU
Then the flip side is that just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you want to, so there are players who can play in all registers thanks to Jerry Callet's stuff, but who mostly play in the normal register.
So it's not quite as simple to find a correlation.
There are several though. Bill Carmichael comes to mind. According to his website he's played with:
Disney World - Universal Studios Orlando - South Town Fever - The Temptations - The Four Tops - Jim Nabors - Stars of the Lawrence Welk Show - Al Martino - Lou Christie - John Tesh - The Sandi Patty Show - Cathy Tricoli - Billie Price - Aretha Franklin - Frankie Valley and the Four Seasons - Collin Ray - Connie Francis - The Vogues - The Don Rickles Show - Recordings for Nickelodeon - Recordings for Bravo Network - Recordings for numerous local TV commercials.
So that's at least one example. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:14 am Post subject:
trumpetingbynurture-
Thoughtful, considered post. Thank you.
My only concern with all of this is understanding why someone would choose to follow Jerry's teachings over the more traditional, tried and true methods.
Jerry's methods, as I understand them, run counter to pretty much everything I was taught and what almost everyone else teaches. Examples of traditional teachings v. Jerry's teachings:
Tongue behind the teeth v. between the lips.
Flat chin v. bunched chin.
Tongue arch with no lip contact v. tongue pressing against lips while playing.
Lips even and together v. rolling one behind the other.
Aperture in the lips in front of aligned, parted teeth v. line between lips above bottom of upper teeth.
Firm mouth corners v. loose corners with lips squeezed together.
Emphasis on air use rather than position of lips v. embouchure is most important, with lip and tongue positions critical.
Average to larger sized mouthpieces v. very small, shallow mouthpieces.
All aspects of trumpet playing important v. high notes are everything.
"Spitbuzz"?
I am no expert on TCE or any of Jerry's other teachings, and may have gotton much wrong in my examples above. But I think we can all agree that Jerry's teachings and ideas are anything but mainstream.
So my question remains: Why embrace Jerry's teachings rather than stick with what has worked for so many players for so many years?
That is why I asked for examples of top players using Jerry's methods.
I can see making the change if Jerry's students are taking the world by storm, but that does not seem to be the case.
On the one hand we have Harry James, Doc Severinsen, Lynn Nicholson, Wayne Bergeron, Allen Vizutti, Al Hirt, Maynard Ferguson, Raphael Mendez, Sergei Nakariakov, Adolf Herseth and so many others and on the other we have...
Mac Gollehon? (No offense to Mac, but anyone else?)
So my questions remains: Why abandon the tried and true unless there is a compelling reason to do so?
What do some players find to be a compelling reason?
Many of Jerry's most avid devotees often claim that Jerry's methods will enable a player to play the lead book in a big band for many hours at a time with a big, beautiful sound and without effort.
How can they know this, when even Jerry himself has never demonstrated the ability to do this in the real world?
It's beyond odd that Jerry has -0- demonstration of his own playing on his own website. In the one brief example of him playing I've found on the web he sounds like crap. In that same video I see no evidence that his "teaching" is in any way beneficial to the students. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:20 am Post subject:
I do not know how Jerry sounds because I have never really heard him play.
I have spoken to Jerry on the telephone several times over the years and he was always friendly and eager to help.
He would often play high notes for me over the telephone, but they were always in the form of glissandos and lip trills, and he never really held on to a note long enough for me to hear his basic tone quality. Also, I don't recall him ever tonguing a note.
I am not trying to bad-mouth Jerry in my posts. I am just trying to find out why certain posters swear by his teachings when Jerry himself never seems to play anything but isolated high notes.
That is why it would be helpful to me to hear any accomplished players who use his methods.
In the past, I would visit the Callet forum and ask if any of the members would be willing to post a clip demonstrating the technique being discussed. In all honesty, I often could not see how what was being advocated could work. The only response I ever got was to listen to Bahb Civiletti.
Is Bahb the only player to be successful utilizing Jerry's teachings?
Finding the answer was the purpose of my original posts.
Again, I have nothing against Jerry. I just wish somebody, anybody, would demonstate for me how the proper use of TCE should sound, rather than just raving about how great it is.
In the past, I would visit the Callet forum and ask if any of the members would be willing to post a clip demonstrating the technique being discussed. In all honesty, I often could not see how what was being advocated could work. The only response I ever got was to listen to Bahb Civiletti.
Is Bahb the only player to be successful utilizing Jerry's teachings?
I seem to recall at some point reading that Bahb doesn't strictly hold to Jerry's method - and maybe they had a parting of the ways over it? Or is that not correct?
If the recently posted anecdote about him getting banned from ITG events is correct, it isn't exactly a glowing testimonial of how he's regarded. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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My only concern with all of this is understanding why someone would choose to follow Jerry's teachings over the more traditional, tried and true methods.
Jerry's methods, as I understand them, run counter to pretty much everything I was taught and what almost everyone else teaches. Examples of traditional teachings v. Jerry's teachings:
Hey Steve,
I totally do understand where you're coming from. Also, I should just say that I actually have nothing to do with any of Jerry Callet or his teaching, except for some mild DIY experimentation to satisfy my own curiosity. You know, where is the proof that Jerome Callet's various embouchure advancements are superior to the conventional? Like you, I haven't really seen or heard anything to suggest that. Even the guys who have obviously made it work, like Bahb and Bill Carmichael, their playing (from what little I've been able to hear) isn't holy smokes, this is undoubtedly better than everyone else's.
For me, they just seem like alternative ways of getting to the same end goal.
Unfortunately, I can't give you the proof you're looking for.
I think my main point in my previous post was that your criteria for proof was maybe a little high. Really, it'd just be good to see examples of working professionals who use it. I don't care whether it's superior to all other methods, I just want to know that it works.
There are a few people I could name in this category but I don't want this to end up being one of those threads where their playing gets torn to shreds as a way of criticising the methodology which wouldn't be fair to people just trying to make a living.
Jerry Callet is a salesman and marketing guy. He found a niche in a small industry and became quite successful made a living focusing on such a small but highly desired, aspect of trumpet playing.
Every trumpet or mouthpiece he makes is the "most revolutionary, best ever, never before matched, most balanced, or most perfect".
And at a time he was able to back up his adverts with his loud freakishly powerful high notes. Of course he'd turn heads and people would want his chops and then buy his gear, or take lessons etc. Back in the 90s he'd leave me messages on my answering machine I wish I still had with announcement on a new mouthpiece and him playing crazy high notes. And I bought a bunch of them!
I've learned lots from Callet. I never would have been so aware of the role of my tongue and what it does if not for Jerry. I changed from a "stretch/smile" set up with a wall around high F-G to a more relaxed frown shape, with relaxed corners and raised bottom lip, and now abilities to play to double C and more sometimes. Every now and then I think back to something Jerry said years ago and apply it to my playing.
But I've also learned tons stuff from many many other teachers and players. Lots of Callet's stuff is bizarre and never made any sense and I don't use it.
Some of his mouthpieces were great, some duds. I like his Sima, a Besson copy he made years ago called the Grand Prix. Never really liked the Jazz, his Flugelhorn was just odd and tubby.
Jerry is an absolutist and very firm in his resolves and extremely convincing and confident. And obviously carved out a place in our small industry. I'm very happy for my knowing Jerry and what I've learned from him, but I'm hardly a devotee off all things he professes.
I think many players play naturally with many of the aspects of his teachings. Articulating through the teeth....lots of guys do it, raised bottom lip and relaxed corners, again, not rare, his anchored tongue and arch, not rare at all. But very few play with the absolute and extreme way he is teaching these days.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3380 Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:18 pm Post subject:
<<why would someone choose Jerome Callet's teaching over tried and true>>
This subject has been discussed many times on the TH so I'll keep it short. Practically everyone that studies with Jerry is like me, a passionate trumpeter who has studied extensively with any number of renowned trumpet pros plus one or more touted pedagogues of the last century including Bill Adams, Don Reinhardt, Claude Gordon, Carmine Caruso, etc. Still, as judged by our personal goals in range, power, endurance, or pitch, these options have not worked for us - just as they did not work for one of the world's most passionate students, Jerry Callet. Perhaps Jerry's greatest contribution is his persistent spirit in the face of all those that say everything about brass development was known by 1980. But I, like Mark and so many others, have found his specific instructions much greater than his spirit alone. If nothing else, one learns that you have to find what works for you - even if Don, Claude, Bill, or others would be initially sceptical. As Jerry says, "If you aren't on pitch you aren't on point." Best to all.
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3380 Location: Philadelphia, Pa
Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:29 pm Post subject:
<<Many of Jerry's most avid devotees often claim that Jerry's methods will enable a player to play the lead book in a big band for many hours at a time with a big, beautiful sound and without effort. >>
I truly doubt any Callet student has said this - unless they added the caveat "with plenty of practice in addition to musical talent". I'll be pleased to see your reference. Nonetheless, I believe his perspective would greatly help anyone get closer to this goal.
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:24 am Post subject:
tptguy-
Thanks much for your clarifying posts.
I can't really provide you with specific examples of all the claims made by Jerry's followers over the years, but am just summarizing what I seem to remember. I may have overstated these claims, for which I apologize.
In any event, I was not trying to disparage any of Jerry's devotees.
The poster "razeontherock" has stated in a recent post on the Callet forum that he has pursued Jerry's teachings for quite a long time.
In response to a poster that asserted that having the bottom lip curl up underneath to ascend is a lousy way to play and self limiting, razeontherock made the following response:
"Most of the best players you've ever heard playing in the upper register
played that way. Are you playing above DHC, 3 shows a day, and making huge concert halls ring as you do it?"
From this post I gathered that razeontherock, a Callet follower, was alleging (without any foundation given) that Jerry's methods were what enabled the great players to successfully meet the demands of lead playing.
I mean no offense to razeontherock, but these are the types of posts I have often seen by Jerry's followers over the years.
And I was hoping to find out why Jerry's teachings are so highly regarded by certain posters when Jerry himself has never demonstrated the ability to successfully play "...above DHC, 3 shows a day and make huge concert halls ring as he does it."
As for Jerry saying, "If you aren't on pitch you aren't on point", I have never heard Jerry play anything so I have no idea if he can play in tune with other musicians or not.
So I again ask, could someone who uses Jerry's methods PLEASE post an example of how TCE sounds. Preferably an example that is not just isolated high notes? If not,
Could someone point me to a clip of well-known Callet-method player, other than Bahb Civiletti, so I can FINALLY hear what TCE sounds like?
I am sincere in my desire to learn more about Jerry's methods, but the proof is in the playing, for me, anyway.
Jerry had a Superchops VHS from back in the 80s I've seen where he sounds MUCH better. I wonder if anybody has that anywhere.
Yes, I have it. In fact, the student on the VHS is a young Bob Odneal playing "Maria". Bob now has his "Casual Double High C" method for sale, so ON TOPIC, there's another name for the list, LOL!
Bob's current method doesn't make any reference to Jerry's method; if anything it's probably more inspired by Doc Severinson's approach to PRACTICE.
I got Jerry's Superchops method (which the VHS tape came with) about 17 years ago. I worked with it and got some interesting results, and the lip position in particular seems to be somewhat different than what he is teaching now, in this posted video. The most beneficial aspect for me was a realization that there are many different ways to play, and that a lot of these differences in range methods working better or worse is still tied to the relative location of a player's natural "fulcrum" point that generates a player's natural "leverage" when ascending or holding a really high note, and possibly also due to physiological differences in the natural elastic properties of our individual lip surface textures.
Jerry's teaching got my thinking out of the box to a greater understanding of the one inescapable FACT (which may answer Winghorn's question):
If the "tried and true" methods aren't getting you all the way there, then you must consider doing something different, in addition to "tried and true", IF you really want to play those notes, AND you still want to be able to play everything else better or at least just as well.
Jerry Callet can play whatever he wants - I don't care. If even one aspect of his method helps me in conjunction with the other 4 or 5 methods I've worked with, then it has value for me. That said, until I can pop out that Double C as easily as Wayne Bergeron could when he was 12, then I have to assume that I still haven't figured everything out, in terms of what elsehas to happen inside the mouthpiece to get some portion of the lip surface to vibrate at that frequency. There's also the possibility that, given the lack of a natural ability (see the part about elastic properties above) to do that at age 12, I might also have to do something extra in there, that Wayne will never have to do. (At any point, I also have to option to presume that it isn't possible, but where's the fun in that???)
It makes the most sense to me that just getting the one more higher note to come out at all instantly offers me the additional potential of strengthening and improving the tone and volume of that note, as well as every other note below, since they are all, then, that much easier to play. The highest note I can play sounded a lot better and became far more consistent and useful after it became the 2nd-highest note I can play - every time! LOL _________________ Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject:
I would still like to see a clip of someone sounding good using TCE techniques.
Most of the TCE clips on YouTube are just talk with a background soundtrack by players, such as Maynard, who never used TCE.
One featured a young man who did a fairly good job on a classical piece, but who spent the first 15 or 20 seconds of the clip apparently getting his embouchure in position by sticking out his tongue and making the most unattractive contortions of his lips and face you ever saw. Disgusting. Who would want to play like that?
Yet another clip showed Jerry coaching a young man whose notes at the end of each arpeggio he played were so flat and dull you couldn't stand to listen to them. Jerry seemed satisfied, though.
So much for Jerry's maxim "If you aren't on pitch you aren't on point."
The examples in the TCE clips all sound like what you would expect from players who scrunch up their lips into tiny mouthpieces, stop the lip vibrations with their tongues and generally attempt to force air through a mishmash of mis-positioned lip tissues that have no hope of forming the delicate aperture necessary for a clear, open sound.
And I now understand why TCE players all play with frowns on their faces. I would be frowning too if I sounded like that.
And at what point should a player who has been following the traditional, time proven methods give up and buy into this TCE business?
Again, are there no clips of players who use TCE and actually sound good?
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