I would still like to see a clip of someone sounding good using TCE techniques.
One featured a young man who did a fairly good job on a classical piece, but who spent the first 15 or 20 seconds of the clip apparently getting his embouchure in position by sticking out his tongue and making the most unattractive contortions of his lips and face you ever saw. Disgusting. Who would want to play like that?
Lol - I'm guessing it's the same video that by coincidence I just today put up in The Lounge under the topic "I dare you to watch this all the way to the end". He sounds great, not a treat to watch him - ergh.
Again, are there no clips of players who use TCE and actually sound good?
I don't know how strictly he holds to Callet's teaching per se but he does purportedly use TCE technique - Bahb Civiletti sounds pretty amazing here on a natural trumpet.
Chris Labarbera is a Reinhardt guy, but has said many times that he and Jerry have been friends for years and he has learned lots from Jerry over the years.
He is not a TCE guy. But I was watching a video or two because I haven't thought of him in a while.
You mentioned frowning, and frown shape.....here are two of the best lead trumpeters in the business. Take a look at their frown shapes when they play.
I can't really provide you with specific examples of all the claims made by Jerry's followers over the years, but am just summarizing what I seem to remember. I may have overstated these claims, for which I apologize.
In any event, I was not trying to disparage any of Jerry's devotees.
The poster "razeontherock" has stated in a recent post on the Callet forum that he has pursued Jerry's teachings for quite a long time.
In response to a poster that asserted that having the bottom lip curl up underneath to ascend is a lousy way to play and self limiting, razeontherock made the following response:
"Most of the best players you've ever heard playing in the upper register
played that way. Are you playing above DHC, 3 shows a day, and making huge concert halls ring as you do it?"
From this post I gathered that razeontherock, a Callet follower, was alleging (without any foundation given) that Jerry's methods were what enabled the great players to successfully meet the demands of lead playing.
I mean no offense to razeontherock, but these are the types of posts I have often seen by Jerry's followers over the years.
And I was hoping to find out why Jerry's teachings are so highly regarded by certain posters when Jerry himself has never demonstrated the ability to successfully play "...above DHC, 3 shows a day and make huge concert halls ring as he does it."
As for Jerry saying, "If you aren't on pitch you aren't on point", I have never heard Jerry play anything so I have no idea if he can play in tune with other musicians or not.
So I again ask, could someone who uses Jerry's methods PLEASE post an example of how TCE sounds. Preferably an example that is not just isolated high notes? If not,
Could someone point me to a clip of well-known Callet-method player, other than Bahb Civiletti, so I can FINALLY hear what TCE sounds like?
I am sincere in my desire to learn more about Jerry's methods, but the proof is in the playing, for me, anyway.
Regards
Steve
Hey Steve,
Just as a point of Clarification, this sounds a lot like Walt Johnson's way of playing.
Also,
This reminds me of a good example!! Nick Drozdorff uses TCE as a "high gear" embouchure. Check him out on YouTube. He only uses it for extreme high register or extended obnoxiously loud rock stuff. He even has a video explaining what he does and how.
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2159 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:20 pm Post subject:
By frown, I meant the frown that accompanies the "bunched chin" embouchure Jerry teaches. Or used to teach? I think the idea is to bunch the chin to push the lower lip into, or under, the upper for support.
My understanding, from Professor David Hickman's wonderful publications and posts on this site, is that players who un-hinge their jaws to line up their upper and lower teeth while playing can display a somewhat frowning, "bull dog" face.
Professor hickman refers to such players as "floating-jaw" players, I seem to remember.
By frown, I meant the frown that accompanies the "bunched chin" embouchure Jerry teaches. Or used to teach? I think the idea is to bunch the chin to push the lower lip into, or under, the upper for support.
My understanding, from Professor David Hickman's wonderful publications and posts on this site, is that players who un-hinge their jaws to line up their upper and lower teeth while playing can display a somewhat frowning, "bull dog" face.
Professor hickman refers to such players as "floating-jaw" players, I seem to remember.
This has nothing to do with TCE.
Steve
I'll post a chop vid maybe tomorrow. And you tell me what you think I'm doing. I've got a pronounced overbite and probably kick out my jaw more than I think I do. Maybe not so much as to have an underbite like a bulldog.
I do believe I do more bunching of the chin during slurs and while playing high C and above. But lip to lip compression, no tucking ...so to speak...of the bottom lip behind the top.
And bulldogs are ugly in a cute way...right?
I'll play a few articulated chromatic scales and some slurs and cover 3-4 octaves so you can see the different registers. Or if there is something else you want to see
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2159 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:44 am Post subject:
Benge.nut-
To be clear, are you a TCE/Callet method player?
That is the style of playing I am hoping to hear. I would especially like to hear some multiple tonguing, as for the life of me, I can't visualize how anyone could tongue quickly and cleanly using TCE.
Also, some pretty and accurate playing in the middle and low registers would be nice.
I am not really a teacher, so am not the best person to be telling you what I think you are doing.
I would like an accomplished TCE player to tell me what HE is doing , and then demonstrate how HE sounds doing it.
Here's a video with Nick Drozdoff Demonstrating his approach to a TCE set. You do hear him tongue using this setting. (I don't mean the squeaky bit where he's setting up, after that he tongues comes High Gs and a Double C).
Personally, I've never been able to get that squeak he does to work.
Last edited by Trumpetingbynurture on Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
That is the style of playing I am hoping to hear. I would especially like to hear some multiple tonguing, as for the life of me, I can't visualize how anyone could tongue quickly and cleanly using TCE.
Also, some pretty and accurate playing in the middle and low registers would be nice.
I am not really a teacher, so am not the best person to be telling you what I think you are doing.
I would like an accomplished TCE player to tell me what HE is doing , and then demonstrate how HE sounds doing it.
Steve
I'm not a "TCE" player, but I do articulate through my teeth. Above high C my tongue is always forward.
I'd say I play much more like Callet's old Trumpet Yoga/Superchops set ups everywhere else. In the middle register my tongue strikes my lips, but retracts and in the lower registers I doubt I do anything resembling TCE
If you ever get a chance to read Callet's older teachings from the 70s-90s they are much more logical and sound and usable compared to whatever his current mysterious TCE system.
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2159 Location: Olympia, Washington
Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:42 am Post subject:
Thanks again, guys.
I can understand tonguing through the teeth, and have known players who can make this work.
What I can't visualize is being able to tonguing cleanly with the tongue actually pressing on the lips at all times. Or am I misunderstanding what "tongue controlled embouchure" mean?
Also, doesn't TCE involve rolling one lip under the other?
If I let my lower lip roll under the upper, my tone goes to crap and I find it v difficult to center a pitch.
Similarly, if I push my tongue against my vibrating lips while playing, the sound becomes muffled.
I can sort of see producing a single tongue with these lip settings, but I would be amazed if anyone could produce a light, delicate single or double tongue.
I stand ready to be amazed if any Callet/TCE practitioner is willing to come forward and demonstrate.
Or is TCE just for squeezing out random high notes?
I can understand tonguing through the teeth, and have known players who can make this work.
What I can't visualize is being able to tonguing cleanly with the tongue actually pressing on the lips at all times. Or am I misunderstanding what "tongue controlled embouchure" mean?
Also, doesn't TCE involve rolling one lip under the other?
If I let my lower lip roll under the upper, my tone goes to crap and I find it v difficult to center a pitch.
Similarly, if I push my tongue against my vibrating lips while playing, the sound becomes muffled.
I can sort of see producing a single tongue with these lip settings, but I would be amazed if anyone could produce a light, delicate single or double tongue.
I stand ready to be amazed if any Callet/TCE practitioner is willing to come forward and demonstrate.
Or is TCE just for squeezing out random high notes?
Steve
Multiple tongue instructions is the biggest mystery in the TCE system from what I've read here and in his latest book and vid.
Jerry told me to go back and forth from a spit buzz to a cough. Honestly that's what he said, then changed the subject lol. I don't think it's possible with the tongue forced into such an unnatural position.
And nobody ever has addressed it no matter how many times it's asked
Okay, as fun as this whole conversation has been, I think this horse has been beaten to death. If people want to keep going, I'm going to suggest starting a new thread as it's really not that relevant to the thread I started which is just to find out who are go to teachers for upper register development.
So whether or not TCE/SuperChops/Etc work is not really the point.
If we have more teachers to add the Page One list, then please post those but let's let the beaten horse rest in peace
I'm curious if anyone has had a Skype lesson with Adam Rapa? He seems very Guarded about his teaching techniques, but I'd be curious to know people's impressions. He's a fantastic player
He also uses two other photos in other videos. Btw, here is the article (and photos) that I wrote after having had some lessons with Jerry in Denmark, 2004:
Jerry was a very interesting guy to meet. Both he and his wife were very nice and friendly people.
I asked Jerry to play some of the difficult exercises in his book "Trumpet Secrets", but he would (or could?) not.
I was never able to get a decent sound by using TCE, but I still uses the anchored tongue on all my brass (trumpet, horn, trombone and tuba).
The only student of Callet I have heard, that have a decent sound, is the German trumpeter, Kelemen.
I was in Dresden last autumn and I notcied that Kelemen is still playing in Dresdner Filharmonie.
Are there other "Callet players" with a good sound?
The only student of Callet I have heard, that have a decent sound, is the German trumpeter, Kelemen.
I was in Dresden last autumn and I notcied that Kelemen is still playing in Dresdner Filharmonie.
He's in the Superchops video that's on Youtube referenced previously. I'd be curious to know if he still actually employs Callet's method. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
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