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trumpetplanet
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Location: Bristol, UK
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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Martinharris wrote: | | A friend of mine said that the warburton MF is too deep and therefore shouldn't be used for the protocol though. |
It's really about the rim/slope high alpha angle. That's what makes these mouthpieces feel different. It enables and/or encourages the lips to go into the correct position for the protocol. It's really not deep at all, maybe only in a relative sense. Later today I'll make some measurements and post some photos. I'll start a new thread though because this is off-topic.
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shakuhachi
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Joined: 17 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: |
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trumpetplanet:
| Quote: | Martinharris wrote:
A friend of mine said that the warburton MF is too deep and therefore shouldn't be used for the protocol though.
It's really about the rim/slope high alpha angle. That's what makes these mouthpieces feel different. It enables and/or encourages the lips to go into the correct position for the protocol. It's really not deep at all, maybe only in a relative sense. Later today I'll make some measurements and post some photos. I'll start a new thread though because this is off-topic.
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I fully agree...and regarding Warburton MF Top in relation to 1950 MF pieces:
I own and have played:
Giardinelli MF1
Greg Black NY4 Top
Warburton MF Top
Ingram Vintage Maynard (HG)
...and some more...
I would say the Vintage Maynard (Holy Grail) is the shallowest,
Giardinelli MF1 is a bit deeper and Alpha angle bit deeper then HG,
Greg Black NY4 is near Giardinelly MF1, but a bit rounder inner rim
Warburton MF Top for me is a mix of GH inner rim sloping and Greg Black NY4 deepness:
Alpha angle more like HG and deepness like NY4/Giardinelli MF1 so that the id seams to be a bit greater and the rim wideness a bit smaller.
...regarding MF Protocol - I own the Monette LN from Lynn as well which he use in his video - these pieces are all perfect for implementing the protocol I think.
some notes about throat/bore relationship in my experience:
huge throats with MF Cup design fit very well to MF Protocol using "lot of air" what ever that means: I think not more volume of air but more compression from the abs/diaphragam like Lynn teaches.
I have a better life with small throat/bore configurations as Roger Ingram offers with his pieces when using that v-cup design and using more tongue based compression as Jermome Callet teaches (TCE).
In my case I am permanently amazed about the great differences in playability caused by minimal hardware modifications - but as I learned from Lynn: the first .100 inch from the rim into the cup are crucial.[/b] |
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GordonH
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:01 am Post subject: |
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My understanding is that the Jet Tone MF3 is based on the earlier Maynard mouthpiece. I have one and it has straight sides rather than the convex profile of the standard MF. It does feel wider though. Incidentally it is very very similar to the MF Jet Tone that was put out in the reissues by WWBW ten years ago. It does look like this was a copy of the MF3, which is why people thought it was nothing like the old MF.
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shakuhachi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Dear GordonH:
think your one is most right (MF3), OK? (pic is not mine, it is from the net)
As you can see the MF3 is mostly configured like a concave v-cup - not a convex v-cup Maynard used (you see left to right: MF2, Vintage MF, MF Personal, MF 1976, MF3).
The reissues WWBW - I own one too - are not like MF3, they are near the MF Personal convex design. But they are a bit deeper and not as narrow as the original.
Lynn told me he think Maynard went from the Holton straight v-cup after the British FBLs to the convex Jet-Tone because he liked to play without practicing. Maynard could take the horn after weeks of rest without any playing and sound good on the Holtons anyway. After the deeper FBLs he comes back to the shallower Holtons to get a better range again as Lynn told (Maynard used shallower mouthpieces before the FBLs with the Caliccio/Giardinelli pieces). The Jet-Tone convex design again gives a bit more shallowness but maintaining a sound of a deeper cup. So Maynard went from light concave (Caliccio HG) over straight (Giardinelli MF1, FBL, Holton) to convex Jet-Tone MF v-Cup until the Monette time.
I too recognized after longer breaks that using the MF convex design works fine when putting the horn again from scratch - not so any other mouthpiece design. This seems to be because that design preferes a very relaxed embouchure which is normal after longer breaks. But one needs a bit more cup-lip pressure to get a good seal in comparison to normal rim designs anyway, and a more rolled out embouchure (unfurling). But the possible range of dynamics seems to be a bit more restricted compared to a normal design. One has to pay for everything!
Lynn did some experiments with convex/concave MF design: his XPiece is a convex design which I could play very well for some time frame as well. But the convex design needs a very balanced setup with subtle coordination - one can easily fail with that design in the long run - but most players hate it from the beginning. A concave design is more secure.
For me currently the early Callet designs are very close to the MF 50th configuration (X5, V.F.17S) but more secure (narrower bore, more grip).
I came back to a more dropped v-cup design of the Callet type (lower alpha angle than MF pieces) after working 3 month on cornet and appropriate mouthpieces. |
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guy
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Location: Quebec,canada
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:08 am Post subject: |
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I got me one of those FBL/TM back in high school, it was stuck in the trumpet I was given. It already had the plier mods but managed to get it out a short time after.
Never could play on it. Just found last week in a box of books that I had stored in the attic.
Still can't play on it well.
G.
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Legends FBL TM is too deep for me. I have also added the Curry HG piece.
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guy
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Mine is NOT the Legend's copy.... but they are probably quite similar.
G
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shakuhachi
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: |
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... in addition I would recommand to try a Stomvi GHM VR GH if one has good results using the Vintage Maynard or other GH clones.
In contrast to Lex Samu (ljazztrm) I would say that Stomvi GHM is a smaller Diameter than Stomvi GH. On the Stomvi Website GH is listed to be .610 and GHM is listed .600. I currently use the GHM again with good results and compared to the Vintage Maynard with more ease and a more balanced sound over the range. I don't have a Stomvi GH.
But may be the feeling between Stomvi GH and GHM differs in comparison to the listing. I have had some email conversation about that with Lynn too in the past: he used both Stomvi pieces and said the same as Lex. May be the highpoint of the rim differs between GH and GHM because K.O. mesures at the changepoint of rim and cup which my be different for both because of the shape.
...but I find the GHM a very good if not the best Maynard 50 clone or better: an improvement. I think the GH is more identical to the original and the GHM is more K.O.'s special v-cup design. I choosed it once because Jim Manley prefers it even to his own JimFlex from Stomvi. |
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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So far, I prefer the actual copy by Ingram made by Pickett. I am sure the Curry piece is identical; however, I need to have it opened from a 25 drill to a 24. Curry's blank seems to be a tad heavier also.
I'd like to try a GR Groovin High piece if they ever produce an exact copy of the original.
The only tighter MF 50's piece of the copies out there I have been able to play is the Legends which has a 28 throat and his Manhatten back-bore.
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feedback@stomvi-usa
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Jon ... I meant if Gary Radke ever produces that mouthpiece again. I wasn't implying that the FLEX pieces were at all copies etc. I am intrigued in the differences in your GH, GHM and JimFlex ?
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burnhamd
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:34 pm Post subject: Legends MF HG |
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Russell,
Have you tried the Legends Brass MF HG. It is my primary piece and I'm sure Derek would give you the story behind it. It is suppose to be a copy as well,
Dan
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Dan,
I have that one also.
Thanks
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stevecass
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| From what I have seen of the Legends copies of my father's pieces is, they are "exact copies" that have "improvements" so not sure how one can also say they are exact. I can only assume then that all the copies of all the other classic pieces they make must also have their own improvements as well. This doesn't make sense to me and seems misleading. If anything they should say "based on" what a player used. But to put a players name to it and it's not what the player used? I want to throw up. |
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burnhamd
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Location: Greenfield, TN.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: The correct information |
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"From what I have seen of the Legends copies of my father's pieces is, they are "exact copies" that have "improvements" so not sure how one can also say they are exact. I can only assume then that all the copies of all the other classic pieces they make must also have their own improvements as well. This doesn't make sense to me and seems misleading. If anything they should say "based on" what a player used. But to put a players name to it and it's not what the player used? I want to throw up."
Steve, this is what I found on the Legends Brass Website:
https://legendsbrass.com/legends-l-ac-series.html
These models have a rim and cup inspired by a mouthpiece made by the legendary Al Cass. The rim and cup design are very similar to the original, but these are not copies of his pieces!
Dan
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stevecass
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Here is an ad on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Berkeley-Dizzy-Gillespie-Trumpet-Mouthpiece/dp/B0098NJNZI/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
Product description
The Dizzy Gillespie Legends Series Trumpet Mouthpiece is an exact reproduction of his silver plated mouthpiece. Expert brass mouthpiece maker, Greg Black, has created an authentic mold that pays tribute to one of the most influential and prominent figures in bebop and modern jazz. While the dynamics have been improved throughout, the Dizzy Gillespie Legends Series trumpet mouthpiece maintains the genuine look, feel and sound of the Dizzy’s original. Gillespie was a trumpet virtuoso and gifted improviser, but he is also known for adding layers of harmonic complexity previously unknown in jazz.
note: "exact reproduction"
note: "dynamics have been improved throughout"
note: "genuine look, feel and sound"
note: "No mention of Al Cass".
how can a piece (one that achieved complex harmonics) be an exactness if it's been improved?!?!?
& I think it's safe to say if you show the mouthpiece shown in this ad to anyone who knows this design they will say "Looks exactly like an Al Cass". (But it's not. huh?!) Do you not find this all a bit confusing? |
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burnhamd
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject: I Understand your frustration |
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Steve,
I see the problem. I went to the link you posted and I think I found were the confusion is. The Amazon link it is titled:
Legends Series Dizzy Gillespie
RS Berkeley Legend Series Dizzy Gillespie Trumpet Mouthpiece.
There is a difference between Legends Series and the Legends Brass Company. Legends Brass doesn't even sale through Amazon.
That mouthpiece is sold through:
Paradiddles Drum Shop, LLC. and made by Expert brass mouthpiece maker, Greg Black according to your information in the previous post.
If you go to this link you will see that the same company makes several different mouthpieces. 9 out of 10 are named Legend Series.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dmi&field-keywords=legends+brass+trumpet+mouthpieces
Dan
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feedback@stomvi-usa
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stevecass
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| Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: I Understand your frustration |
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| burnhamd wrote: | Steve,
I see the problem. I went to the link you posted and I think I found were the confusion is. The Amazon link it is titled:
Legends Series Dizzy Gillespie
RS Berkeley Legend Series Dizzy Gillespie Trumpet Mouthpiece.
There is a difference between Legends Series and the Legends Brass Company. Legends Brass doesn't even sale through Amazon.
That mouthpiece is sold through:
Paradiddles Drum Shop, LLC. and made by Expert brass mouthpiece maker, Greg Black according to your information in the previous post.
If you go to this link you will see that the same company makes several different mouthpieces. 9 out of 10 are named Legend Series.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dmi&field-keywords=legends+brass+trumpet+mouthpieces
Dan |
So this link is selling a "Diz" mouthpiece and shows video's of Diz using "THE REAL THING" and basically sells the person a mouthpiece that is NOT EVEN THE PIECE in the video's? Improved bla bla bla. It's not Diz' mouthpiece. Diz used a 24 throat, not a 27.
https://www.legendsbrass.com/legends-dizz.html
They are using Diz and HIS AL CASS to sell a "LEGENDS" inspired Al Cass mouthpiece that is admittedly and obviously NOT the mouthpiece in the video's. My father worked his life to assist Diz, perfecting Diz' piece. Now this guy comes along and makes a "NOT A COPY", but an "improved" version mouthpiece, yet uses footage of Diz himself to sell it!
Explain this please.
This guy is showing them an Al Cass IN USE, then on the same page selling his product telling (or suggesting to) his customers the piece he is providing is the same but it isn't it's different!!!!!!!!! ????????????, I wonder what Diz would have said using a 27 throat piece. Sorry but I think it's deceiving and plain out WRONG. It just doesn't make sense to me that this is going on and basically IMO prey's on the mis-informed player and honestly, taking advantage of my father and his legacy. This is called CONFUSION. He is using my father's LEGENDARY NAME and his LEGENDARY ENDORSEMENTS to sell his mouthpieces not matter how you shake it.
Imagine you make hand bags and you made a website saying blatantly your product is inspired by Louis Vitton, and you show a picture and a video of a famous person walking down the street with their personally made and signed by Louis Vitton bag proving how great the Vitton bag is,.... & above this pictures of a Louis Vitton bag and Louis Vitton's customer holding a Louis Vitton, IN AN ADVERTISEMENT and link to purchase a bag made by some generic named bag company, that bares no real person's name. And ADMITTEDLY, the generic name manufacture supposedly changed the color of it's stitching, leading customers to believe it is somehow improved upon "in an artistic fashion". CRAZY MAN! I wonder what Louis Vitton would say about that! Think about it.
Yeah, those Black pieces, IMO are also confusing and are compounded with the confusion of the other makers, the Black with the the generic name series and the GENERIC BRAND pieces and the original design they are copying, because what is shown in both ad's is an Al Cass mouthpiece. It's one thing to mention all this sales bull at the NAMM show or ITG in the bar to one of your distributors or customers, but it's another thing to put it in print advertisement. |
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Hey Steve, first let me say I am a very big fan of your dad's pieces. They are truly some of the best mouthpieces ever made imo. I just don't feel Derek is doing what you are claiming.
| Quote: | Here are some specs on this piece: DIZZ
The Legends Dizz was created in honor of the legendary Dizzy Gillespie. A trumpet virtuoso whose career spanned more than 50 years, he is known for expanding the world of jazz into bebop and Afro-Cuban jazz. His incredible improvisation style was influenced by his idol, Roy Eldridge. And, in turn, Gillespie influenced and mentored other legendary trumpeters such as Miles Davis, Arturo Sandoval and John Faddis. His chart-topping compositions, such as "Groovin' High", "Salt Peanuts", and "A Night in Tunisia" are known to trumpeters everywhere.
This model has a round, comfortable rim. The cup is shallow, similar to a Bach E. The rim and cup were inspired by an Al Cass signature Dizzy Gillespie piece. The throat is a #27, allowing plenty of air flow for a huge sound. The backbore is a Legends Manhattan, which has great focus and nice resistance. It is specifically geared for the needs of players on those extended performances and all night gigs. This mouthpiece is nice for playing any style of music, and is perfect for the technical runs and high-note improvisations of bebop.
DIZZ Specs:
Outside Rim Diameter: 1.08" (27.432 mm)
Outside Rim Contour: Round
Inside Rim Diameter: .590" (14.986mm)
Inside Rim Contour: Round
Cup Depth: Shallow (Similar to Bach E)
Throat: #27
Backbore: Legends Manhattan
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In no place does Derek claim he is making an improved version of Dizzy's mouthpiece. He has made a mouthpiece in honor of Dizzy. He says the rim and cup were inspired by your dad's piece. He isn't claiming it's the same piece as your dad made for Dizzy. To me, this is a hommage to the piece Al made for Dizzy. If it wasn't such a good piece, why would someone be inspired to create a mouthpiece in honor of it? For those of us who know a little about your dad's pieces, it is clear that the diameter of Derek's piece is much smaller at .590 as well as other differences that he lists.
While it's true I've seen copies of your dad's pieces - There was that company in England years ago that even called their pieces 'Al Cass' right? I just don't see that, in this case, this is what Derek is doing though. All the best, Lex
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