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GordonH
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 2893
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:29 am Post subject: |
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This issue is complicated by the references to blowing resistance. A cornet fitted with a Bach trumpet style mouthpiece will have more resistance than a trumpet fitted with the same mouthpiece. A cornet fitted with a funnel-shaped mouthpiece with a bigger throat will have the same initial resistance as a trumpet, then as you blow harder into the instrument that resistance will give a little. This is the response found in brass bands, but also in some of the older cornets and mouthpieces used in jazz. The sound blooms as it gets louder. You will hear this in the brass band soloists and jazz players like Dick Sudhalter, who played in the 1920s style.
It is, therefore, a combination of the bell flare, longer leadpipe and resistance added by the wrap of the instrument and how the player interacts with that.
Because of this resistance issue you can't force lots of air through it as it doesn't really achieve anything. You need to play within the resistance and it is a bit like playing piccolo trumpet. Within the breath basically.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | Bflatman wrote: | ...I contend that there is no difference, and I challenge you to prove there is.
Of course you might select a trumpet that sounds trumpet like and a cornet that sounds cornet like and then use that prejudiced and slanted example to prove your case. But that would be meaningless.
Undoubtedly more cornets sound cornetlike than sound trumpetlike.
This is due to the individual wraps and bell. But some trumpets have more conical tubing than some cornets, and some cornets have more cylindrical tubing than some trumpets... |
I wasn't making fun of you, just making a joke. I see a difference there, but if you don't, I apologize.
That said, it appears that you just made a point that cornets and trumpets can be different, depending on how they're built. I'll be the first to agree that there are cornets that sound like trumpets and trumpets that sound like cornets. The point I was trying to make (probably not very well) is that you can't make a blanket statement that there's no difference between cornets and trumpets. |
No sweat dale, sometimes the internet makes it hard to understand meaning. I know and respect you from your writings.
I think I can say that there is no difference and I will try to justify that statement.
If all cornets were different to all trumpets then there would be no argument, but they are not all different.
There must be consistency in an argument or the argument collapses in my opinion.
There is no consistency in the amount of bell flare, some cornets have the same or less bell flare than some trumpets.
There is no consistency in the amount of cylindrical tubing in the instrument, some cornets are more cylindrical than some trumpets.
These transitory instruments are the very instruments that cross over the tonal divide, and allow a cornet to sound like a trumpet and a trumpet to sound like a cornet.
Must we ignore these transitory instruments simply because we dont want to admit they exist.
If we can ignore them then we can truly argue that there is a difference, but that would I think be a sham.
We could say that long cornets are not real cornets, but that is a nonsense.
In a similar way we can argue that american cars are not as controllable as european cars, because of course american cars are automatic transmission but european cars are stick shift. We will of course have to ignore all those american stick shift cars, and all those european automatic transmission cars, for this argument to hold water.
Must we invent a sub class of trumpets and a sub class of cornets so that we can ignore the inconvenient instruments that refuse to obey our rules of what is an acceptable cornet or an acceptable trumpet.
If I were an instrument designer and my cornet had a slender bell flare and somewhat cylindrical tubing, must I market it as a trumpet even though it has a cornet mouthpiece.
I dont see exclusivity in design between cornet and trumpet at all other than the mouthpiece, and isnt exclusivity in design the very topic of this thread.
Instead can we not just agree that in design terms a cornet and a trumpet effectively are the same, by convention they tend to have differences but many do not. |
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Bflatman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Gordon,
Very interesting remarks about the leadpipe and resistance, I do understand there are differences in receiver and mouthpiece between the two instruments and this difference maybe could add to the resistance issue you raise.
There may be some correlation here with the mouthpiece gap issue in trumpets, I really dont know on that one.
I for one welcome any new knowledge that would conclusively illustrate a difference, but right now for me the jury could be said to be out on this one. |
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