Pre 1955 Conn cornet

[DoubleEagle]

Assuming it comes and plays well, I just landed a vintage, mid-fifties Conn cornet. It needs a mouthpiece tho, and I guess these horns have special requirements. I play a Bach 3 rim. Does anyone know of a mouthpiece that will work that won't cost me more than the horn? I understand Curry makes some, but the sizes aren't very close to a 3 (more like a 5 or smaller than a 1) and it looks like they need to be special ordered, so no break on the price. The website doesn't get specific about how much it's gonna cost either.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Andy Cooper]

How picky are you?
You can do a search for an exchange a month or two ago on the Trumpetherald about adjusting mouthpiece gap by filing down the end of the shank.

I've done it for old horns and it works OK if you then adjust the inside edge of the backbore a bit and clean out any filing shavings.

Only do this to a cheap mouthpiece - an old Bach or Bach clone. (I saw some Benge 3's on e-bay with a make an offer option. These were decent Bach clone mouthpieces from UMI - the same as the UMI Conn mouthpieces.)

Review your options ranked by increasing cost:

Put tape on the mouthpiece shank to increase the gap.
File down the end of an old mouthpiece until it seats correctly
Replace the Receiver
Custom mouthpiece from any of the makers - they can all do it for you.
Custom backbore from any of the makers then have a Bach 3 top cut and threaded for backbores.

When all else fails - I give horns, that threaten to be money draining black holes, to my friends who have too much money. I laugh as they get sucked into a valve job then silverplating with engraved nightingales and honeysuckle.

[Richard III]

[Bflatman]

It depends on the cornet and its age with Conn.

Around 1956, the mouthpiece was changed in Conn cornets, the details are on the ConnLoyalist website, look your model up on there.

I have found that Yamaha mouthpieces are a good fit for Conn cornets and are cheap. Also I use a Wick mouthpiece in a Conn 80a cornet and that is a good fit as well.

The only issue is the taper which is not an exact fit with a modern cornet taper. but the mouthpiece sits in there well, it just waggles a bit.

Your choice is to put up with it, or use a paper washer round the shank, or get a tech to recut the receiver for a modern mouthpiece.

I just put up with it.

Check out Yamaha and Wick

[DoubleEagle]

This is likely a 1954-55 horn - a 12A. Christine talks about there being the word Coprion on the lead pipe, and it looks like that might be there on this one. It's a little hard to read in the photo. Thus it probably needs a mpc with a different taper. The seller says it plays well though there is some damage to the lead pipe and a few dings.

I have a new Conn (UMI?) 3 (no letter) that only cost me 20 bucks. I also have an older Bach 3C I could modify - or have someone else do that.

I tried searching the topic, but with all searches, wording is important. Can you give me a key word that might yield the information you mention?
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Dale Proctor]

I have a 1954 Conn cornet (80A) that came with its original Conn 4 "short shank" mouthpiece. It's just a tiny bit shorter than the later Conn 4 mouthpieces, and doesn't seem to fit the cornet any differently than any of my other cornet mouthpieces (Bach, Curry, Wick, etc.). I'd try it with a regular cornet mouthpiece before I started looking for a custom one.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[DoubleEagle]

I like that advice! Thanks Dale. One more thing to be hopeful about. The seller said he used a Conn Precision mouthpiece tho, not the later Improved model. I asked him about it. He indicated that it played better with the original Conn style but was OK with others. I guess I'll just wait and see. I have quite a few mouthpieces I can try that have the right diameter cup.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Andy Cooper]

Here's the link about shortening a mouthpiece shank from Sept 8th

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=140779

I'm always hesitant to recommend DIY projects on the TrumpetHerald since some player who does not yet know his/her skill limitations might power up a Black and Decker and light into a perfectly fine $200 mouthpiece.

Tape the shank first - see how it plays with more gap.(Or you can use the slip of paper trick.) Then go for altering a cheap mouthpiece - a little at a time - cleaning out all filings and smoothing down the outside and inside edges before inserting in the receiver. (You might do a Google search on measuring your gap.) After playing for a few weeks - if you still like the cornet - have a new mouthpiece altered by one of the makers you read about on the TH. A Bach 3 would probably be a good mouthpiece for the Conn. Almost all of the Conn cornets were .485 bore and really deep, open British Band style mouthpieces can be a bit tough to work with on these horns.

I have the opposite problem with a recently acquired Conn .438 bore 77A Connquest from the mid-50's - too much gap. I'll be taking it to my repair tech and pay the money to either ream or reposition the receiver.

Congratulations on your purchase.

[Dale Proctor]

Mine came with the Precision model mouthpiece, and it does play well with it. Here's a pic I took a few months ago of a Conn Improved, Conn Precision, and Wick mouthpieces for comparative purposes. Other than the differences in length, the two Conn 4 mouthpieces also differ in cup depth, with the older Precision having a more shallow cup and less sharp rim. For comparison, the Conn Improved inserts about 3/32" farther than the older Precision, but modern cornet pieces like a Bach insert the same as the older Conn Precision.


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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[DoubleEagle]

Thanks again, Andy and Dale. Great info and advice. Links and pictures! And for the record, Andy, I don't have any $200 pieces. I'm a guy with an ancient MusEd degree one year into a comeback. I play in a community band, where (with the director's blessing) I'm the only one who plays cornet in a 14 member "trumpet" section. With a 3C mpc though, I suspect it's hard to tell. I do have others for when I want a more mellow sound. I do play a trumpet in our jazz band just to make certain I blend. I used to play in rock bands back in the 70s. Pretty sure I don't have anything designed to cut metal gracefully. "A man's gotta know his limitations."

The 12A is a .468 horn - Conn's #2 instead of 2.5 bore. I'm hoping it's nice cuz I've never had a professional cornet. Just student lines and one intermediate one - a 76A. I like the 17A a lot, and mine gets comments wherever I go. It's a 1968 model and is in remarkable condition. From the photos, the 12A looks pretty good, but will be rougher than the 17A. It almost has to be.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[1jazzyalex]

You can also check your local music stores and pawn shops, as some of them keep a bunch of used MP's around.
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Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A

[DoubleEagle]

The horn came today. It's in pretty good shape. It seems a bit oil sensitive tho. The 3rd valve didn't like Blue Juice, something someone recommended to me, so I put some Al Cass on it and it works fine now. I'm trying to figure out if it's been stripped or if there are just issues with the lacquer. Guess I need to have someone look at it to be sure.

BTW, I checked the serial number and it's a 1955 with the word Coprion on the receiver. I forget if Christine lurks here or TrumpetMaster (where I am not a member.) She said she wanted to be contacted by someone who has one of these as they may be somewhat rare, but she's taken her email off the site. Does anyone know how to contact her, or will she see this?
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[DoubleEagle]

Here's a photo of the horn. The seller confirmed it's been stripped, so now I need to find a good place to have the horn cleaned up and re-lacquered. Dale, I know you had a horn done by someone you were happy with. Do you have contact info for them? Can I ask what it cost to do the job right with darkened lacquer on the copper? Anyone else have suggestions? I don't think I want the trouble of a raw horn. The seller probably already polished the heck out of it in places. I haven't a clue what it's really worth. I KNOW the work is gonna cost more than what I paid for the horn though.



The horn has lead pipe straightness issues. Mostly various pings otherwise, and the valves don't all sit at the same height. I sure like the way it plays though, but this is the first pro cornet I've ever played.
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Dale Proctor]

Southeastern Musical Services did my Conn cornet. Without the cost of copper plating the bell, the price would have been about $350 (their budget overhaul). It looked pretty good, but if I had it to do over again, I would have gone for the $500 overhaul and not used the tinted lacquer. Reason is, while the copper bell looked great with the tinted lacquer, the horn had a lot of nickel on it, and the tinted lacquer gave it a yellowed appearance. It would look ok on a horn without much or any nickel trim, though.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[DoubleEagle]

Most of the nickel on my horn is removable: valve caps, buttons, and bottoms, the lyre set screw, and the spit valves. The only things that are not are the receiver tip and the pinky ring. I assume those would need to be on when the sprayed the horn. Did the $350 cover dent removal and a valve adjustment? What is the difference between the budget and full price restoration?

You said you copper plated the bell. What horn did you have them do? Did the plating change the sound, or were you going for "the look"?
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Dale Proctor]

It was a Conn 5A Victor. I had the bell plated for looks - it didn't really have any effect on the sound or the way it played. The budget overhaul removes most all the dents, but the horn isn't buffed quite as well before lacquering. It still looked pretty good, though. They do replace all the corks and felts and align the valves as part of either rebuild. Call Bill Deiss next week and talk to him about it. He can answer any questions you have. They do good work.

[DoubleEagle]

So now that I have spent several days with the horn, I confess I haven't noticed any intonation issues using a standard Bach 3C. (I have a pretty good ear, having made my living as a piano tuner and sung in decent barbershop quartets for 40 years.) C# is a little sharp. Ebs and Abs are a little low, but that's a function of the 3rd valve slide being longer, not the mouthpiece. Are intonation issues scattered around on the horn, or do they affect certain ranges - high, middle, or low? Just for fun, I slid a stick down the receiver to see where the ridge is, but there isn't one. I'm sorta new to this gap thing. Doesn't concern about a gap need a ridge? Maybe I don't understand. The Bach goes in and stops, fitting tightly, but maybe that's just from years of use with the wrong mouthpieces. What makes a gap if there isn't a ridge? Or isn't this a gap issue? It may have been made before the Improved Precision mouthpiece, but ... well, what am I missing?
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Benge CG, Early '70s Selmer piccolo, Early '80s Selmer piccolo, Conn 12A cornet, Conn 38A cornet, Conn 48A Connqueror "Vocabell", Conn Connquest 76A cornet, Conn Director 17A Coprion cornet, Conn Director 15A cornet, '50 Olds valve/slide trombone

[Dale Proctor]

A lot of older Conns don't have a ridge, so technically, there's no "gap" on them. I've read that the depth the mouthpiece inserts into the receiver still has a sweet spot, though. That said, on my 1955 Conn cornet, a modern Bach cornet mouthpiece inserts into the receiver the same distance as the old Conn Precision mouthpiece that came with the horn. There is slightly more wobble before the Bach mouthpiece seats, but then it has no looseness. Like you say, the receivers on these old horns could be a bit worn, too.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham