Why do method books now start lower?

[Sarah]

OK... Just in case u don't know... I am a woodwind teacher who was given a trumpet. So I am in early stages...

But I can't help thinking pedagogically.. And it got me pondering....

So books start with c and move up to second space c before moving down...

Is there a reason for this? I think (at least in my case...) that promotes tension.

Why don't books start at below the stave c and work down.. And possibly even do pedals before moving up much more gradually?

I just confess to a few expletives in practise as method books have wanted me to suddenly add range which I couldn't get....

Thanks
Sarah

[Crazy Finn]

I suspect it's for practical reasons.

The notes between C below the staff (let's call it low C) to C in the staff are very useful. They're used in elementary band music, high school solos, even in general orchestral repertoire. If you extend up to the G on the top of the staff, I'd say at least 75% of trumpet literature lies in that range.

The notes below low C aren't used often in band music or solos. They're essentially only used in trumpet exercises for the reasons you mention, to promote relaxation, flexibility, technical facility, etc.
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[Andy Del]

This is because these are the notes you need to learn to play and developing them is critical to ongoing progress.

If you find these notes difficult, then it's necessary to take a step back and work up to them, over and over until it becomes easy. Until then, it won't be easy!


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[Danbassin]

I think the reason we tend to start low ('Low C' for most, but 2nd line G is also fairly common) is simply that these are the easiest notes to sound before one develops a reliable embouchure. That said, there are a number of anecdotal 'methods' and genuine books that do start higher.

A famous story about Renold Schilke advising students to start on "High C" is retold here: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Other%20exercises.html

Additionally, I've heard from multiple sources about the late, great Armando Ghitalla having an unusual approach for beginners and seasoned trumpeters who needed chops counseling, which involved setting up on higher notes.

Fundamentally, it all comes down to the fact that the relatively small area of muscle directly engaged in tone production fatigues easily and readily, so our first notes and warm-ups shouldn't hobble our ability to make music once we are warmed-up.

I hope this is of some help, but the one bit of unsolicited advice I'd give anyone starting out on trumpet is to gravitate towards "The Art of Phrasing" section of the Arban book. There's so much that is beneficial in that 'bible of trumpet playing' but the simple melodies contained therein provoke us to make music which also happens to challenge and develop our chops.

Happy practicing!

-DB
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[Sarah]

Hi guys. I think the last two post MI's understood my question. I am asking why don't we start with the notes low c (the one the others instruments call middle c....) and lower. They would seem to encourage a relaxed technique etc. And gentle tonguing. (higher notes.. At least in my case, tend to encourage me to tongue harder to set the lips vibrating faster.. Which I have read and heard isn't correct)

Other than it works well with band. Which completely makes sense. Is there any other reason not to practise below the staves and even pedals before moving higher than the low c?

For my woodwind students. I tell them not to join band until they have been learning with me for a year. Because band methods start them at. Really weird places... Because of the transposing instruments that they have to play with... By the time they have learned for a year, they usually skip junior band and go straight into senior anyway.

[Danbassin]

[Sarah]

Daniel. Thanks for that reply that is useful.

The question actually originated when I went to fix an error I discovered with my embouchure that I lost all range, except those notes below low c and the pedals!

But what u say makes sense, that it would encourage a student to allow to much mouth piece into the trumpet. Thanks.

Yes. Before I realised that my jaw was doing something strange, I was reading all the ideas of how to get above the high c, as I was stuck there! But now I am just focussing on getting the jaw position correct, and not worrying about range.

I paid for online lessons early December.. But only just managed my first lesson with the teacher. Turns out he was away, and there was a gliche in the system that didn't notify him that I paid for lessons. Although it was more a meet and greet this time.

I have coped so far with lots of reading, both here and every pedagogical resource I could get my hands on. I probably own every pedagogical resource in existence and so the couple of conversations or lessons I have had I get frustrated when the teachers, or performers have said things like "don't worry about technique... Just practise! " I suspect it comes from people who never had a challenge in their playing, they just flukes it correct. Claude Gordon says that about himself... So when a teacher tried to change his technique, he lost his range... He had instinctively been doing it correct. I guess that must be the same about the trumpeters I have come across in real life.

[pepperdean]

Sarah,

In my opinion - You're absolutely correct that relaxation is very important for playing the trumpet with a good, resonant sound and for a responsive embouchure. Firmness and range of motion in support of the embouchure is equally important as well. I believe the many methods that begin near the bottom of the trumpet's range, often written so to blend with band method books for other instruments, is not beneficial to young trumpet players. Many of us, trying to achieve a wide range that encompasses high notes required for performance, spend much time trying to move our set point (relaxed home base) up to a higher tessitura that is in the middle of where we need to perform. I believe that beginning with a comfort zone in the very low register makes the student vulnerable to employing too much pressure and tension as they try to explore the high register.

I was unaware of the Schilke story but Carmine Caruso told a similar tale in the late '60s. He said he'd been teaching a young beginner and he'd had him start with notes above the staff. The young man did not know these were high notes and did not know they were supposed to be hard. Carmine said the student could quickly play all over the horn.

Alan

[dstdenis]

"Do not follow the advice of those who say that, to achieve ease of playing high notes, one must work particularly on the low notes. Low notes relax the lips, but do not give them strength. The best way to reach high notes is to study all the registers in turn, placing less insistence on the low notes because they are less difficult. In this way, low notes are useful for high notes and high for low notes, because there is no real strength without flexibility and no real flexibility without strength." — Merri Franquin
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[Sarah]

Wow guys. Thanks so much. That is very insightful. I like the home base image. And the story of the young man starting high.

Completely answers my why questions

[Craig Swartz]

It should also be pointed out that those lower tones, and even C' and D' can be played with an incorrect embouchure and sound pretty good. Then, once the student tries to ascend, especially around F and G if they have been allowing the lips to blow out, they have a real problem trying to make them sound at all. Oftentimes with such students, E and F will sound essentially the same if they are not forming an embouchure properly.

There has been a trend in the US to start students on E or F, just so students will also start out having to use a valve fingering to start out. Ditto clarinet, sax, etc.

[Sarah]

Craig. Can u please fill out what u mean really clarinet? Curious about this trend (clarinet is one of the instruments I completed diplomas in!)

[oj]

John Wilbraham said this in his Trumpet Method:

Most early playing problems stem from this practice of starting to learn very low in the instrument's range, and they are often found together with incorrect mouthpiece placement on a poorly formed embouchure. (from the Introduction)

By establishing the middle C (third space) as the central note, there will be less problems for the player, both mentally (only one octave to high C - not two) and physically (a firmer setting).

This philosophy (starting higher) can be found in the teaching of other trumpet professors, like Armando Ghitalla - already mentioned here (see ITG Journal - May, 1997 "Interview with Armando Ghitalla")
Bo Nilsson, Hardenbergers teacher, also said the same (see Brass Bulletin No. 113).

Ole

[Craig Swartz]

[pepperdean]

Piggy-backing on Craig's comments, starting the trumpet on the lowest notes might be equivalent to beginning the clarinet on the softest possible reed. Notes are very easy to produce but developing the foundation for good tone and intonation becomes very difficult.

Alan

[Sarah]

OK. I understand now.

The funny thing is when I teach clarinet... We play mouthpiece games while practising sealing the holes (with the mouthpiece on our shoulder), so by the time the mouthpiece joins the fingers, the fingers can immediately play all the charlumeau (I can never remember how to spell that word!) notes, I guess similar to buzzing for a few weeks before playing the trumpet (which is what the book buzz to brilliance said to do).

I do the same with flute.

And funnily.. I teach four year olds flute. So I know what u mean. I get angry at shops that don't think to sell my students prodigy flutes... With curved heads and mechanism to make the fingers not need to spread so far. Again with flute... Weeks on the mouthpiece and practising fingers separately, and they play A, G, F First on the flute. Not one note. And note as susceptible to overblowing as the B.

I guess I had no real idea that clarinet players ever started on an open g. As it is such a stuffy nose, and not the best way to get good tone. So thanks for filling out your comment. Fully agree.

I did get off the forum and see if there is any chance I could get a higher note and work down... But couldn't.. My current range is very low only... Oh well... Will keep working on embouchure and air to try and move the "home point" of my range

Thanks guys

[Craig Swartz]

You must be blessed with some very patient students and parents- If I had taken weeks to have students only buzz mouthpieces or play on head joints I'd have lost all of mine over the years. Usually, if students weren't producing some sort of recognizable melody after a week or two, they'd hit the road. (That usually meant neither student nor parent had any desire to practice or hear the instrument being played at home, outside of the school lesson period, so little or no progress developed.)

There is a major difference between starting 4 and 10 year olds, though, and if you have a method that works for you and yours- outstanding! As for me, for instrumental music with that age group I'd (personally) be concentrating more on keyboards where the breathing, sitting posture, and holding an instrument are not a problem. Learn the pitch directions, staves, note names, meter and note value issues, as well as other basic theory. All easily transfers to other instruments later. I do have some colleagues who start very gifted students (with also very gifted parents, if you get my drift) on 1/4 size stringed instruments. Progress will vary but sometimes a winner develops. All the best!

[Sarah]

Lol. U know I don't believe in giftedness... But yes.. To start them early, the parents need to devote the time to make practise fun, otherwise it won't happen.

U know, probably because we start with headjoint games, it is so much fun, that they are happy to practise. In case of flute, a finger in the bore can alter pitch and therefore they make melodies that way.

I do start ten year olds.. But mostly four year olds! (very few come to me younger than that!) I prefer to get them playing with good technique.. Then they have something to relate their music theory to.



There is a Suzuki trumpet method.. Which I am very curious about... But being a beginner... Not sure anyone would answer my questions. Once I get to a high enough level I have lots of questions! Lol

[Andy Cooper]

Sarah,

Be thankful that you are encountering problems with your trumpet playing. In college, it took me two weeks to get a sound out of the clarinet. It didn't help that my clarinet teacher started me with a #4 reed. I struggled with every problem.

Interestingly enough, when I became a teacher, my beginning clarinet students never squeaked, and played in tune.

My trumpet students were OK.

While I started at about 10, 4 seems a bit young for trumpet. What would really be great would be keyboard training so when they are ready to start trumpet, they already read notes and rhythm .

If you have the opportunity, spend a little time on tuba or euphonium. You will get a better idea of how the small movements of the center of your lips, inside the mouthpiece, control range rather than mouthpiece pressure. Then transfer that feeling to trumpet.

[kevin_soda]

Standard of Excellence starts both trumpet and trombone (and perhaps others...) on the first "open" note you can play. Low C or Middle G Many students can easily play a g in the staff if they don't blow too hard. It's been mentioned that starting low can cause a player to get too loose or play with too much air and it's absolutely true. Especially when kids expect the instrument to be loud, they easily overblow a Low C and attempt to fit the same volume of air into a Middle G. We also have a tendency to go into way too much detail about the physical side of tone production. It's important that people understand that the embouchure responds to airflow. It's common to feel like you're air is working but the trumpet isn't when, in reality, you're just squeezing your lips together super tight and packing the air in your lungs. I understand your frustration with people not explaining the "how" side but it's a fact that no one else can tell you what the inside of your mouth feels like. So, you have to focus on the balance between air velocity and aperture setting. You've already sorted out your jaw position so you should be on your way to a fairly neutral setup. I've traveled a similar path it sounds like you're on the right track. Breath attacks help embouchure development more than anything. "hoo...poo...too" ya know? Quiet. Controlled. Not relaxed or tight, but rather, engaged or supported. Sorry for the rambles...
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