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Don Herman rev2
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 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Just use Google and do a search on this site. Years ago Flip delineated the differences. Not sure it is worth the on-going pissing match on this thread.
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | | trumpet.sanity wrote: | Interesting, the same bell that "defines" a Wild Thing. If it doesn't have that bell, it's not a "Wild Thing"
All the mystique and importance of that magic bell that defines the horn and makes it so special, and worthy of long winded articles, and testimonies, and defines that horn, and compares to no other!!
And.....it's the same bell as what's in the marching band trumpet Kanstul makes. |
There is so much more to it than just the bell, but it starts with that. Like I said, a practiced eye can see many of the things that make the WT unique. Almost all of them, in fact. |
Oh, well it was stated here that the bell is what makes a Flip Oakes designed trumpet a Wild Thing, and with out that bell, it's not a Wild Thing.
Now it's been established that Kanstul's marching band trumpet uses the same bell.
Then more ambiguity about other parts of the horn that makes it unique. I guess my eye isn't as trained as yours, but perhaps you can go into more detail about what defines the Wild Thing's uniqueness |
You and I say that it is the same bell. Or, I should say that I used to say that. I have learned over my time with Flip that "everything changes everything." So for instance, if two bells are made on the same mandrel, but one has a different bend, they are no longer the same bell. The radius of the bend changes how the bell behaves and sounds, when you examine the instrument over its entire range and scope. This is why I wrote that the 103 and Wild Thing bells are made on the same mandrel. The details are not the same, just as they are not the same for the C Trumpet or each of the two cornets that Flip designed. Yet all of these are made on the same mandrel.
I have to be careful here, because Flip wants to keep some of this information private in order to protect his intellectual property. But, the first thing anyone sees is that the Wild Thing has a unique wrap. It's about 1-1/2" shorter in length than my old Benge 5X and it is a more open wrap vertically. It's not a large as the Conn Constellations were, but not far behind. When developing the Celebration (#72 bell), Flip had one prototype made with the standard Kanstul Signature wrap and another with the Wild Thing wrap. I have played them both and they feel and behave very differently, so the wrap is one of the things that sets the Wild Thing apart from conventional trumpets.
The rest can be gleaned from a careful inspection of an actual horn, so I'll let you go on your own from here and figure out the rest.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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trumpet.sanity
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Joined: 24 Oct 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Ok thanks for the clarification.
Sound like you really like your horns. And I'm glad.
Arturo sounds great on his, and all those marching bands using the Kanstul 103 trumpets sound great as well. Must be a good bell design.
And I'm sure thee are lots of other guys using them that love them as well, I just haven't heard that many recordings of players, or seen that many guys playing them. |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | Ok thanks for the clarification.
Sound like you really like your horns. And I'm glad.
Arturo sounds great on his, and all those marching bands using the Kanstul 103 trumpets sound great as well. Must be a good bell design.
And I'm sure thee are lots of other guys using them that love them as well, I just haven't heard that many recordings of players, or seen that many guys playing them. |
Maybe this goes without saying, but I guess I'm saying it anyway: while I think the WT is a great horn, my signature shows I use others as well, and regarding other guys using the WT, personally I don't care that it's not a horn you see everywhere, or even hardly ever, it works well for me. I don't know if the rarity of sightings has to do with the fact that Flip does not sell to dealers (but of course neither does Dave Monette....or Harrelson, or______), or if it's just not a horn that has a mass appeal. But again, and this is said with absolutely no ill will or sarcasm, I simply don't care who does or doesn't like or use the horn.😎 And even though I just acquired a great old Getzen Severinsen, it still doesn't make me sound like Doc, any more than a Monette would make me sound like Wynton, or a Bach would make me sound like any number of the pros who use them.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Winghorn
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Joined: 07 Apr 2006
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Location: Olympia, Washington
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Brad-
That's really the bottom line, isn't it? Good for you.
Steve |
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trumpet.sanity
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Joined: 24 Oct 2016
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Like Callet trumpets, Flip's are boutique trumpets.
Small production, Kanstul built horns. They both have a loyal following. Both are fine examples of great horns from the Kanstul factory.
But as stated, they are made in small numbers, and therefore reach a small number of hands (small hands hahaha no presidential overtones intended)
This all got spun out of control because I mentioned an older Flip designed Kanstul trumpet. It's still a Flip Oakes horn. Just like a Superchops or Jazz is still a Callet trumpet. Just not a Sima.
If "prototype " was a term you Wild Thing folks didn't like...I'll disavow!! I'd like to be able to retract my comment. I misremembered, or misspoke, or was using alternate facts.
Sorry |
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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When I met Flip in 2009, he told me he didn't know the exact number, but he was pretty certain he had sold something over 2000 Wild Thing horns since he began his business in 1997. These include his cornets, flugelhorn, Bb trumpets and the C trumpet. The greater number is the Bb Wild Thing trumpet followed by the flugelhorn, I imagine. Still, spread those around the US, Canada, Europe, Australia and other parts of the world and it's not hard to see why they are rarely seen.
I want to mention that Flip isn't able to participate in this thread, because he has contracted shingles which has affected his eyes and he cannot see well enough to read. He is recovering and the prognosis is that he will be back to normal soon. He asked me to mention it, if I thought it appropriate. This is why I took up the opportunity to clarify the difference between a Wild Thing and other horns designed by Flip. I know he would have done so if he could, because it has been discussed before in this forum.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | .....
If "prototype " was a term you Wild Thing folks didn't like...I'll disavow!! I'd like to be able to retract my comment. I misremembered, or misspoke, or was using alternate facts.
Sorry |
Speaking for myself....no problemo!😉 Maybe it's because I'm not as familiar with Flip's history as Brian and others here, and maybe they are correct, but I certainly took no offense whatsoever!
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Threads like this are not uncommon on TH. There is a lot of advocating/arguing about different horns. Most of this advocating/arguing is based on personal impressions and/or technical specifications and is highly opinionated. Because there is no purely objective standard there is no purely objective basis for uniform agreement, a condition which is unlikely to change anytime soon.
I have about 50 trumpets in my collection. They range from Conn and Harry B. Jay trumpets from the early 1900's to a new Adams A8. There seems to be a point at which "early" trumpets ended and "modern" trumpets began. There are very distinctive differences between the playing characteristics and the sound of "early" trumpets compared to "modern" trumpets. The shift seems to have occurred in the late 1920's to the early 1930's.
Wayne Bergeron was the featured soloist with the Nebraska Jazz Orchestra (NJO) a few years ago. After the concert there was a reception at my home which Wayne attended. During the reception he viewed my collection and played some of the horns.
The first horn he played was my 1930 Conn Model 58B. According to the Conn Loyalist website this model was introduced in 1928. It is a very fun horn to play particularly because it has that sort of "tinny" bugle sound characteristic of "early" trumpets.
The second horn he played was my 1933 H.N. White "King" Silver Tone. He played a couple of scales and then looked at Willie Murillo (who was also featured in the concert) and said, "This plays like a modern horn." Then he looked at me and said, "There haven't been many advances in horns over the past 75 years. Maybe a little more even scale."
Wayne sounded great on the 1933 Silver Tone. More importantly, Wayne sounded like Wayne on the 1933 Silver Tone.
How many trumpets have we heard Doc play? Doesn't Doc sound like Doc on all of them? How many trumpets have we heard Wynton play? Doesn't Wynton sound like Wynton on all of them? How about Maynard? How about Chet?
Of course there are differences in trumpets but, apparently, the differences are so subtle we don't tend to notice them in the final result. The players just keep sounding like themselves no matter what trumpet they're playing.
There are, no doubt, differences in the playability of the trumpets, too, but apparently not enough differences to make any significant difference. Doc and Wynton and Maynard and Chet seem just as fluid and articulate on one trumpet as they are on another. It doesn't really seem to matter what trumpet they play, it all ends up about the same.
What does that say about whether and to what extent there is such a thing as a "magic" horn or a "perfect" horn or a "best" horn? I think it is more realistic to say that you can sound great on any modern quality built horn. There are differences in timbre, response, flexibility, etc. but these differences are not "night and day" differences. At the end of the day trumpets play like trumpets and sound like trumpets.
That's not to say that some trumpets are not better than others for certain situations with certain players, but whether Wayne plays a Bach Strad, Wild Thing, Olds Ambassador or my 1933 Silver Tone on his next recording, will it really make that much difference, enough difference to advocate/argue endlessly over whether this, that or some other trumpet is "best?"
With enough skill any modern quality built trumpet can sound amazing.
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Brad361
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Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | ........
That's not to say that some trumpets are not better than others for certain situations with certain players, but whether Wayne plays a Bach Strad, Wild Thing, Olds Ambassador or my 1933 Silver Tone on his next recording, will it really make that much difference, enough difference to advocate/argue endlessly over whether this, that or some other trumpet is "best?"
With enough skill any modern quality built trumpet can sound amazing. |
I agree, but without going back and reading this entire thread I'm also not sure that anyone IS arguing that any particular horn is "best", or "magic", I know I'm not. It's just discussion of trumpets.....on a trumpet forum, of all places.😉
And it's probably inevitable that someone will say all this time would be better spent practicing, so yeah, that's true. But again, it's just trumpet discussion on a trumpet forum.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Centennialsound
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Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Don Herman rev2 wrote: | | Just use Google and do a search on this site. Years ago Flip delineated the differences. Not sure it is worth the on-going pissing match on this thread. |
Thank you... This thread's gone slightly outa control lol
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Centennialsound
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Joined: 14 Jan 2017
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | Centennialsound,
The above quote you cited was written because I detected a vein in you, like my own, that just doesn't want to "go along with the crowd." You seem to be willing to explore and learn in a broader context, even if that involves different challenges most people never encounter. A whole bunch of people will steer you to go with the flow, middle of the road. I feel it important to communicate that that approach isn't the only way, nor always the best way. There are those of us who, for whatever reason, cannot remain creative while following the masses. We are not followers by nature. |
Mr. Douglas,
Wow, you nailed it! That's exactly it. I have a hard time settling for something everyone has! My teacher and my grandfather know that about me as well so they're flexible and allowing me to look at custom horns like the wild thing:)
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the thread has "gotten outta control" I believe new information was brought to light, at least for me.
Perhaps this was all stuff you were aware of, for me, much was new info.
When I was your age, I wanted a "different" horn as well. At one point I even had an MF Horn. Just one of many poor decisions I made during my youth. |
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Centennialsound wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | Centennialsound,
The above quote you cited was written because I detected a vein in you, like my own, that just doesn't want to "go along with the crowd." You seem to be willing to explore and learn in a broader context, even if that involves different challenges most people never encounter. A whole bunch of people will steer you to go with the flow, middle of the road. I feel it important to communicate that that approach isn't the only way, nor always the best way. There are those of us who, for whatever reason, cannot remain creative while following the masses. We are not followers by nature. |
Mr. Douglas,
Wow, you nailed it! That's exactly it. I have a hard time settling for something everyone has! My teacher and my grandfather know that about me as well so they're flexible and allowing me to look at custom horns like the wild thing:) |
With all the DCI bands using the Kanstul 103 at least you'll know the Wild Thing will be good for marching band  |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Centennialsound wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | Centennialsound,
The above quote you cited was written because I detected a vein in you, like my own, that just doesn't want to "go along with the crowd." You seem to be willing to explore and learn in a broader context, even if that involves different challenges most people never encounter. A whole bunch of people will steer you to go with the flow, middle of the road. I feel it important to communicate that that approach isn't the only way, nor always the best way. There are those of us who, for whatever reason, cannot remain creative while following the masses. We are not followers by nature. |
Mr. Douglas,
Wow, you nailed it! That's exactly it. I have a hard time settling for something everyone has! My teacher and my grandfather know that about me as well so they're flexible and allowing me to look at custom horns like the wild thing:) |
Hi Centennialsound
I can understand what you mean, and it is nice to be different. However in reality, on my common Yamaha Xeno II and Bach 37, for the reasons said by Hermokiwi below, I already have something which nobody else has, and that is my personal sound and individual approach to the trumpet. You could argue that this means having my lesser attributes and no doubt bad habits, but they are all part of my trumpet playing.
My advice would be to find the trumpet that allows you to have your best appropriate sound for the style of playing you are doing and your playing situations, with playing characteristics you like and which suit your individual approach and playing style.
I'd choose the Wild Thing if it is the best compromise between giving you the best appropriate sound, and the best playability in your current and near future playing situations, and if you really enjoy playing it and the sound you make on it, not on whether it is different to what anyone else owns.
Being a versatile trumpet suitable for a wide range of playing styles is also an advantage for a developing player.
Take Care
Lou
| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Wayne sounded great on the 1933 Silver Tone. More importantly, Wayne sounded like Wayne on the 1933 Silver Tone.
How many trumpets have we heard Doc play? Doesn't Doc sound like Doc on all of them? How many trumpets have we heard Wynton play? Doesn't Wynton sound like Wynton on all of them? How about Maynard? How about Chet?
Of course there are differences in trumpets but, apparently, the differences are so subtle we don't tend to notice them in the final result. The players just keep sounding like themselves no matter what trumpet they're playing.
There are, no doubt, differences in the playability of the trumpets, too, but apparently not enough differences to make any significant difference. Doc and Wynton and Maynard and Chet seem just as fluid and articulate on one trumpet as they are on another. It doesn't really seem to matter what trumpet they play, it all ends up about the same. |
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | I don't think the thread has "gotten outta control" I believe new information was brought to light, at least for me.
Perhaps this was all stuff you were aware of, for me, much was new info.
When I was your age, I wanted a "different" horn as well. At one point I even had an MF Horn. Just one of many poor decisions I made during my youth. |
I don't really think it's gotten out of control either, just lengthy. I think in fairness to the OP, since he's relatively new here it probably seems a little bit crazy.
The OP is a young guy, and assuming he continues playing this most likely will not be his last trumpet purchase.....just ask most of us (or our wives) here! 😎I do agree that for a younger/developing player, staying "middle of the road" regarding equipment is probably wise, but I also don't think that has to mean picking a horn that is one of "the usual suspects" is absolutely critical. As long as he realizes that, as we've heard here before, "it's not the arrow, it's the Indian" and continues to PRACTICE and study I think he'll probably do fine.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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He really needs to try some horns... Preferably with his prof or some trusted ears to listen from the other side of the bell. I would advocate he try a Bach, Yamaha, and Schilke to get a feel for some some of the mainstream horns and what he might like. A Z and a Xeno are pretty different, at least to me. One of the bigger Schilkes would be good to see if he likes the feel of a very open horn, probably one of the biggest factors, and hopefully he can listen to some different bell flares.
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Centennialsound
Regular Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | Centennialsound wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | Centennialsound,
The above quote you cited was written because I detected a vein in you, like my own, that just doesn't want to "go along with the crowd." You seem to be willing to explore and learn in a broader context, even if that involves different challenges most people never encounter. A whole bunch of people will steer you to go with the flow, middle of the road. I feel it important to communicate that that approach isn't the only way, nor always the best way. There are those of us who, for whatever reason, cannot remain creative while following the masses. We are not followers by nature. |
Mr. Douglas,
Wow, you nailed it! That's exactly it. I have a hard time settling for something everyone has! My teacher and my grandfather know that about me as well so they're flexible and allowing me to look at custom horns like the wild thing:) |
Hi Centennialsound
I can understand what you mean, and it is nice to be different. However in reality, on my common Yamaha Xeno II and Bach 37, for the reasons said by Hermokiwi below, I already have something which nobody else has, and that is my personal sound and individual approach to the trumpet. You could argue that this means having my lesser attributes and no doubt bad habits, but they are all part of my trumpet playing.
My advice would be to find the trumpet that allows you to have your best appropriate sound for the style of playing you are doing and your playing situations, with playing characteristics you like and which suit your individual approach and playing style.
I'd choose the Wild Thing if it is the best compromise between giving you the best appropriate sound, and the best playability in your current and near future playing situations, and if you really enjoy playing it and the sound you make on it, not on whether it is different to what anyone else owns.
Being a versatile trumpet suitable for a wide range of playing styles is also an advantage for a developing player.
Take Care
Lou
| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Wayne sounded great on the 1933 Silver Tone. More importantly, Wayne sounded like Wayne on the 1933 Silver Tone.
How many trumpets have we heard Doc play? Doesn't Doc sound like Doc on all of them? How many trumpets have we heard Wynton play? Doesn't Wynton sound like Wynton on all of them? How about Maynard? How about Chet?
Of course there are differences in trumpets but, apparently, the differences are so subtle we don't tend to notice them in the final result. The players just keep sounding like themselves no matter what trumpet they're playing.
There are, no doubt, differences in the playability of the trumpets, too, but apparently not enough differences to make any significant difference. Doc and Wynton and Maynard and Chet seem just as fluid and articulate on one trumpet as they are on another. It doesn't really seem to matter what trumpet they play, it all ends up about the same. |
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Thank you for the advice:)
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Centennialsound
Regular Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2017
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: |
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Sorry I didn't mean it had got out of control... just kinda wearing it's welcome on this forum most likely:)
Anyway thank you everyone for the thoughts
See ya around
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- Con |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Centennialsound wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: |
Hi Centennialsound
I can understand what you mean, and it is nice to be different. However in reality, on my common Yamaha Xeno II and Bach 37, for the reasons said by Hermokiwi below, I already have something which nobody else has, and that is my personal sound and individual approach to the trumpet. You could argue that this means having my lesser attributes and no doubt bad habits, but they are all part of my trumpet playing.
My advice would be to find the trumpet that allows you to have your best appropriate sound for the style of playing you are doing and your playing situations, with playing characteristics you like and which suit your individual approach and playing style.
I'd choose the Wild Thing if it is the best compromise between giving you the best appropriate sound, and the best playability in your current and near future playing situations, and if you really enjoy playing it and the sound you make on it, not on whether it is different to what anyone else owns.
Being a versatile trumpet suitable for a wide range of playing styles is also an advantage for a developing player.
Take Care
Lou
| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Wayne sounded great on the 1933 Silver Tone. More importantly, Wayne sounded like Wayne on the 1933 Silver Tone.
How many trumpets have we heard Doc play? Doesn't Doc sound like Doc on all of them? How many trumpets have we heard Wynton play? Doesn't Wynton sound like Wynton on all of them? How about Maynard? How about Chet?
Of course there are differences in trumpets but, apparently, the differences are so subtle we don't tend to notice them in the final result. The players just keep sounding like themselves no matter what trumpet they're playing.
There are, no doubt, differences in the playability of the trumpets, too, but apparently not enough differences to make any significant difference. Doc and Wynton and Maynard and Chet seem just as fluid and articulate on one trumpet as they are on another. It doesn't really seem to matter what trumpet they play, it all ends up about the same. |
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Thank you for the advice:) |
Hi Con
You are very welcome.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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