View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
trolarg Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 47
|
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: Is it a mental problem? |
|
|
About, say 1-2 weeks ago, before class started i was playing so well, i was hitting high E daily and it was sounding loud and stuff, it was when i had first broken the barrier, that was about 1 week before school started, once it did i wanted to show it off to my classmates because he's known for doing these really high notes so i did but it sounded so weak and dull, but i didnt care and kept practicing as normal, but soon leading after that week, High E went away, and soon Eb, and then D. Now i can barely get a C to sound loud. The only time i can play like i did when i had the E is when we play some songs that we have for a competition in Berklee. I dont know what to do honestly and im scared i might not perform well at the competition because of this problem. Please send help
Edit: I go to a specialized music school so practice time isnt the issue _________________ Bach trumpets have the best sound |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wohlrab Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Mar 2015 Posts: 131 Location: California
|
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
First take a break. Second talk to your private teacher if you've got one. Are you only practicing to reach those high notes? If so, that's probably minimally productive.
It sounds to me like you're just worn out. Happens a lot to players when they get new high notes, because all they want to do is play those, but while that's fun, it's very taxing on the embouchure. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trolarg Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 47
|
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
wohlrab wrote: | First take a break. Second talk to your private teacher if you've got one. Are you only practicing to reach those high notes? If so, that's probably minimally productive.
It sounds to me like you're just worn out. Happens a lot to players when they get new high notes, because all they want to do is play those, but while that's fun, it's very taxing on the embouchure. |
I really havent, ill ive done was practice the competition pieces which the highest note has a c sharp above the staff at the end. The decline started happening once school started which was weird. My normal practice is warming up with C going down to pedal C and then a chromatic scale from A below the staff to the one above, and then whatever i feel like doing that day. Since it is a specialized music school i take band every day for two and a half hours. _________________ Bach trumpets have the best sound |
|
Back to top |
|
|
brassmusician Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2016 Posts: 273
|
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting that you can still get those notes when you play the competition pieces. In my experience this can happen when there is a strong mental representation of those notes - your mind and body know the context well and you are probably focussing just on executing the phrase musically rather than isolated high notes. Still it is a shaky thing, and if you get more tired you may lose those too. I find that newly acquired high notes are the first to go when my chops get fatigued so I agree with Wohlrab and think you need to build more rest into your programme. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
|
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"90% of it is half mental." Yogi Berra
You have to keep your foundation strong. Long tones, flexibilities, flow studies, rest as much as you play. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
|
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Unfortunately, much of playing a musical instrument is "mental". On the other hand, so is playing sports, driving a vehicle, leadership, following, and life. Don't let it get you down... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
roccotrumpetsiffredi Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2015 Posts: 169
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ed Kennedy wrote: | "90% of it is half mental." Yogi Berra
You have to keep your foundation strong. Long tones, flexibilities, flow studies, rest as much as you play. |
Lol, so 45% of it is mental:)? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 942 Location: Eastern NC
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi, when you played in a situation where you're trying to play the high notes are you relaxed or do you get excited or nervous? Some time ago I played in a group with a guy who sounded great in the practices and rehearsals, he even had a great practice room DHC. But, when we played out in public it was a different story. His focus was all wrong and he would get so nervous he would blow the licks, time, notes and not be able to play much above high C. He focused on the audience and not missing so much it unnerved him and he missed. So, take a breath, shoulders down, chest up, relax and just play.
Have you ever seen the movie For The Love of the Game. When Kevin Costner gets ready to pitch at the beginning of each inning he psyches himself into the concentration by saying "Turn on the mechanism", tunes out the crowd and goes to work. When I perform my focus is totally on the conductor, the music, listening to the ensemble, relax, play. No distractions, they are tuned out.
Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | ill ive done was practice the competition pieces |
Quote: | The decline started happening once school started |
Quote: | i take band every day for two and a half hours. |
I'd lose my upper register too if I neglected my fundamentals and had to sit through long, daily band rehearsals. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Anytime you introduce a change it can take weeks for the full effect to be realized. Don't celebrate too much the little breakthroughs and don't sweat the occasional bad days. Go back to your routine before your high note breakthrough and get back into your old groove. Then try to approach how you got the extra range incrementally, very slowly and carefully. If your gains don't hold or they introduce problems then you need to back off and come at it from another direction. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trolarg Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 47
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
falado wrote: | Hi, when you played in a situation where you're trying to play the high notes are you relaxed or do you get excited or nervous? Some time ago I played in a group with a guy who sounded great in the practices and rehearsals, he even had a great practice room DHC. But, when we played out in public it was a different story. His focus was all wrong and he would get so nervous he would blow the licks, time, notes and not be able to play much above high C. He focused on the audience and not missing so much it unnerved him and he missed. So, take a breath, shoulders down, chest up, relax and just play.
Have you ever seen the movie For The Love of the Game. When Kevin Costner gets ready to pitch at the beginning of each inning he psyches himself into the concentration by saying "Turn on the mechanism", tunes out the crowd and goes to work. When I perform my focus is totally on the conductor, the music, listening to the ensemble, relax, play. No distractions, they are tuned out.
Dave |
Answering your first question, i just start thinking of the note in my head and visualizing it and then if i do i start thinking about how high it is and how much air ill need.
Edit: the same thing you described happens to me. _________________ Bach trumpets have the best sound |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trolarg Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 47
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
cheiden wrote: | Anytime you introduce a change it can take weeks for the full effect to be realized. Don't celebrate too much the little breakthroughs and don't sweat the occasional bad days. Go back to your routine before your high note breakthrough and get back into your old groove. Then try to approach how you got the extra range incrementally, very slowly and carefully. If your gains don't hold or they introduce problems then you need to back off and come at it from another direction. | Before that i was doing the Claude Gordon daily routines but i had stopped due to it taking so long and i couldnt practice the competition pieces _________________ Bach trumpets have the best sound |
|
Back to top |
|
|
falado Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 942 Location: Eastern NC
|
Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
trolarg wrote: | falado wrote: | Hi, when you played in a situation where you're trying to play the high notes are you relaxed or do you get excited or nervous? Some time ago I played in a group with a guy who sounded great in the practices and rehearsals, he even had a great practice room DHC. But, when we played out in public it was a different story. His focus was all wrong and he would get so nervous he would blow the licks, time, notes and not be able to play much above high C. He focused on the audience and not missing so much it unnerved him and he missed. So, take a breath, shoulders down, chest up, relax and just play.
Have you ever seen the movie For The Love of the Game. When Kevin Costner gets ready to pitch at the beginning of each inning he psyches himself into the concentration by saying "Turn on the mechanism", tunes out the crowd and goes to work. When I perform my focus is totally on the conductor, the music, listening to the ensemble, relax, play. No distractions, they are tuned out.
Dave |
Answering your first question, i just start thinking of the note in my head and visualizing it and then if i do i start thinking about how high it is and how much air ill need.
Edit: the same thing you described happens to me. |
There's a book you may find interesting called "The Inner Game Of Music", check it out. I do the CG SA too. I always start my day with flexibility exercises, Irons, Colin, or Smith, slurred and tongued. This sets me up for the day. I do this under the guidance of a GC trumpet teacher. If I'm having troubles as you describe, I start thinking: Am I relaxing, where's my tongue, breathing, etc., but don't over analyze. Sometimes I play my best when I just play. Don't think about it, just play. If it's still a problem you may consider going back (you should be working on) fundamentals, Arban and Clark. Can you just open the Arban to any page and play it? Don't forget to rest as much as you play. If you're having performance anxiety over playing in front of people, then play for an audience (friends, relatives, strangers even) every chance you get and get over the nerves. I know pros that get nervous and occasionally I do (depending on the solo and venue), but I conquer it by focusing and PPP (Proper Prior Preparation).
Hope this helps. Dave _________________ FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
|
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
trolarg wrote: | Before that i was doing the Claude Gordon daily routines but i had stopped due to it taking so long and i couldnt practice the competition pieces |
It seems like you've answered your own question here. It isn't mental.
It looks like you have three options.
1. Continue to ignore your fundamentals and wonder why you are struggling.
2. Return to the full routine you were doing and come up with a way to efficiently work on your competition pieces.
3. Modify your fundamental routines to allow maintenance/progress while still leaving time to practice your competition pieces.
All of the fine approaches to dealing with performance psychology won't help you if your foundation isn't firm. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Arjuna Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 240 Location: So Cal
|
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Is it a mental problem? |
|
|
Study Arturo Sandoval's warm up video.
Practice Maggio part 1 as Arturo Sandoval practices it.
Rest 10-15 minutes then practice Maggio part 2.
Get up early allowing an 1.5-2 hours before school.
Practice this 5-6 days per week.
Always take 1-2 days off per week just not in a row.
Practice slowly and softly.
Practice Caruso's 6 note exercise.
Practice Schlossberg 3 times per week.
Practice 20-30 minute sessions then rest 1 hour between sessions.
Practice Irons 3 times per week.
trolarg wrote: | About, say 1-2 weeks ago, before class started i was playing so well, i was hitting high E daily and it was sounding loud and stuff, it was when i had first broken the barrier, that was about 1 week before school started, once it did i wanted to show it off to my classmates because he's known for doing these really high notes so i did but it sounded so weak and dull, but i didnt care and kept practicing as normal, but soon leading after that week, High E went away, and soon Eb, and then D. Now i can barely get a C to sound loud. The only time i can play like i did when i had the E is when we play some songs that we have for a competition in Berklee. I dont know what to do honestly and im scared i might not perform well at the competition because of this problem. Please send help
Edit: I go to a specialized music school so practice time isnt the issue |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
|
Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why you were able to hit the notes and now can't is purely physical, the "mental" part is awareness of what you were doing to hit those notes. Admittedly this can be easier said than done.
You've learned it's possible for you to reach those notes, and unless you've had some catastrophic, profound physical change - busted lip, lost teeth, paralysis - you can do it again, and then some.
You need to figure out what you did to hit the E. What I see as the problem with a lot of typical methodology is it takes you through practice and just hopes you sort of fall into increasing range with no real specific understanding of what you're doing.
Once upon a time hitting a musically useful E would have been inconceivable to me, even practicing and playing hours every day. Now I practice a fraction of what I used to and expect an E to be there. What it *isn't* the result of is endless range-building exercises per se, but rather being attuned to elements of what I'm doing.
Try this - get warmed up and start playing some kind of graduated exercise, one octave scales or arpeggios. Start low, play low C to middle C at a moderate volume. Something you know you can hit easily. Hold the top note - really be aware of what's going on. Watch yourself in a mirror. As you hold the top note gradually play it louder and really pay attention to what's going on. What is your top lip doing, what is your bottom lip doing. Where is the tension all around your embouchure and how is it focused. Horn angle, how much pressure are you using, how open are your teeth, tongue/throat arch. Where are your lips in relation to your teeth? Balance of pressure top lip vs bottom lip. How is your lower jaw set? As you play louder observe what changes. Now, snatch the horn off your lip and don't change anything - observe how everything is set. Now do it again, with a scale or arpeggio a half step higher. Make sure that top note is full every time.
What I'm looking to happen is that you're going to be forced to have your chops set to play a big, full note. Pay close attention to what's going on with your chops as you go higher. What's different say between a low C and a high C? Between a middle C and a G on top of the staff and a high C? When you get to the top of how high you can go doing this, see if you can go a half step higher. What do you have to change? Move more air? Higher tongue arch? Changed lip tension? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trolarg Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 47
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | Why you were able to hit the notes and now can't is purely physical, the "mental" part is awareness of what you were doing to hit those notes. Admittedly this can be easier said than done.
You've learned it's possible for you to reach those notes, and unless you've had some catastrophic, profound physical change - busted lip, lost teeth, paralysis - you can do it again, and then some.
You need to figure out what you did to hit the E. What I see as the problem with a lot of typical methodology is it takes you through practice and just hopes you sort of fall into increasing range with no real specific understanding of what you're doing.
Once upon a time hitting a musically useful E would have been inconceivable to me, even practicing and playing hours every day. Now I practice a fraction of what I used to and expect an E to be there. What it *isn't* the result of is endless range-building exercises per se, but rather being attuned to elements of what I'm doing.
Try this - get warmed up and start playing some kind of graduated exercise, one octave scales or arpeggios. Start low, play low C to middle C at a moderate volume. Something you know you can hit easily. Hold the top note - really be aware of what's going on. Watch yourself in a mirror. As you hold the top note gradually play it louder and really pay attention to what's going on. What is your top lip doing, what is your bottom lip doing. Where is the tension all around your embouchure and how is it focused. Horn angle, how much pressure are you using, how open are your teeth, tongue/throat arch. Where are your lips in relation to your teeth? Balance of pressure top lip vs bottom lip. How is your lower jaw set? As you play louder observe what changes. Now, snatch the horn off your lip and don't change anything - observe how everything is set. Now do it again, with a scale or arpeggio a half step higher. Make sure that top note is full every time.
What I'm looking to happen is that you're going to be forced to have your chops set to play a big, full note. Pay close attention to what's going on with your chops as you go higher. What's different say between a low C and a high C? Between a middle C and a G on top of the staff and a high C? When you get to the top of how high you can go doing this, see if you can go a half step higher. What do you have to change? Move more air? Higher tongue arch? Changed lip tension? |
Thank you for the advice, ill be sure to practice this way more often! It seems usually when i practice i dont pay attention as much as i should _________________ Bach trumpets have the best sound |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Is it a mental problem? |
|
|
trolarg wrote: | About, say 1-2 weeks ago, before class started i was playing so well, i was hitting high E daily and it was sounding loud and stuff, it was when i had first broken the barrier, that was about 1 week before school started, once it did i wanted to show it off to my classmates because he's known for doing these really high notes so i did but it sounded so weak and dull, but i didnt care and kept practicing as normal, but soon leading after that week, High E went away, and soon Eb, and then D. Now i can barely get a C to sound loud. The only time i can play like i did when i had the E is when we play some songs that we have for a competition in Berklee. I dont know what to do honestly and im scared i might not perform well at the competition because of this problem. Please send help
Edit: I go to a specialized music school so practice time isnt the issue |
98% of all trumpet playerd never play a musical tone sbove a concert High C. And while there are several different embouchure types as well as differing principles between the two?
The inability to play above high C is either caused by
A. Lack of air support. Or,
B. You upper lip is not in a position to allow the free flow of air into the mouthpiece. So that it allows the airstream to vibrate.
And the answer is usually "B".
This is basic stuff and I will never understand why it is not mentioned more often.
In the case of the O/P? It is very easy to understand his limitation.
At certain times his chops are fresh. They can vibrate freely and he plays to high E. However his upper lip is only marginally available below his upper teeth.
So that when he gets fatigued or swollen chops the sound will cut out.
The answer for him is (as it is for the other 98%) to drop a bit more upper lip below his upper teeth. At this placement the high E's and above will last much longer.
Previously various high note methods had achieved sporadic success by encouraging trumpet players to "pucker" more. And occasionally puckering does allow a little more upper lip to descend below the upper teeth. THAT is what helped the high notes.
Problem with the puckering method is that its practicioners often must take the mouthpiece off their lips after reaching a certain tone. Then re-set and continue playing higher. This is a more limiting matter.
Because if the trumpet player merely kept a little more upper lip below his upper teeth? His registers would all connect.
He ought to be able to blow from low F# to at least G above high C with a little practice. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
trolarg wrote: | Thank you for the advice, ill be sure to practice this way more often! It seems usually when i practice i dont pay attention as much as i should |
Something I should have emphasized more - don't be timid about moving a lot of air. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trolarg Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 Posts: 47
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | trolarg wrote: | Thank you for the advice, ill be sure to practice this way more often! It seems usually when i practice i dont pay attention as much as i should |
Something I should have emphasized more - don't be timid about moving a lot of air. |
Im sorry but what do you mean by this?? _________________ Bach trumpets have the best sound |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|