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trolarg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:03 pm    Post subject: Is it a mental problem? Reply with quote

About, say 1-2 weeks ago, before class started i was playing so well, i was hitting high E daily and it was sounding loud and stuff, it was when i had first broken the barrier, that was about 1 week before school started, once it did i wanted to show it off to my classmates because he's known for doing these really high notes so i did but it sounded so weak and dull, but i didnt care and kept practicing as normal, but soon leading after that week, High E went away, and soon Eb, and then D. Now i can barely get a C to sound loud. The only time i can play like i did when i had the E is when we play some songs that we have for a competition in Berklee. I dont know what to do honestly and im scared i might not perform well at the competition because of this problem. Please send help

Edit: I go to a specialized music school so practice time isnt the issue
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wohlrab
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First take a break. Second talk to your private teacher if you've got one. Are you only practicing to reach those high notes? If so, that's probably minimally productive.

It sounds to me like you're just worn out. Happens a lot to players when they get new high notes, because all they want to do is play those, but while that's fun, it's very taxing on the embouchure.
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trolarg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wohlrab wrote:
First take a break. Second talk to your private teacher if you've got one. Are you only practicing to reach those high notes? If so, that's probably minimally productive.

It sounds to me like you're just worn out. Happens a lot to players when they get new high notes, because all they want to do is play those, but while that's fun, it's very taxing on the embouchure.

I really havent, ill ive done was practice the competition pieces which the highest note has a c sharp above the staff at the end. The decline started happening once school started which was weird. My normal practice is warming up with C going down to pedal C and then a chromatic scale from A below the staff to the one above, and then whatever i feel like doing that day. Since it is a specialized music school i take band every day for two and a half hours.
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that you can still get those notes when you play the competition pieces. In my experience this can happen when there is a strong mental representation of those notes - your mind and body know the context well and you are probably focussing just on executing the phrase musically rather than isolated high notes. Still it is a shaky thing, and if you get more tired you may lose those too. I find that newly acquired high notes are the first to go when my chops get fatigued so I agree with Wohlrab and think you need to build more rest into your programme.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"90% of it is half mental." Yogi Berra

You have to keep your foundation strong. Long tones, flexibilities, flow studies, rest as much as you play.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, much of playing a musical instrument is "mental". On the other hand, so is playing sports, driving a vehicle, leadership, following, and life. Don't let it get you down...
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roccotrumpetsiffredi
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
"90% of it is half mental." Yogi Berra

You have to keep your foundation strong. Long tones, flexibilities, flow studies, rest as much as you play.


Lol, so 45% of it is mental:)?
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falado
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, when you played in a situation where you're trying to play the high notes are you relaxed or do you get excited or nervous? Some time ago I played in a group with a guy who sounded great in the practices and rehearsals, he even had a great practice room DHC. But, when we played out in public it was a different story. His focus was all wrong and he would get so nervous he would blow the licks, time, notes and not be able to play much above high C. He focused on the audience and not missing so much it unnerved him and he missed. So, take a breath, shoulders down, chest up, relax and just play.

Have you ever seen the movie For The Love of the Game. When Kevin Costner gets ready to pitch at the beginning of each inning he psyches himself into the concentration by saying "Turn on the mechanism", tunes out the crowd and goes to work. When I perform my focus is totally on the conductor, the music, listening to the ensemble, relax, play. No distractions, they are tuned out.

Dave
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ill ive done was practice the competition pieces


Quote:
The decline started happening once school started


Quote:
i take band every day for two and a half hours.


I'd lose my upper register too if I neglected my fundamentals and had to sit through long, daily band rehearsals.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anytime you introduce a change it can take weeks for the full effect to be realized. Don't celebrate too much the little breakthroughs and don't sweat the occasional bad days. Go back to your routine before your high note breakthrough and get back into your old groove. Then try to approach how you got the extra range incrementally, very slowly and carefully. If your gains don't hold or they introduce problems then you need to back off and come at it from another direction.
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trolarg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

falado wrote:
Hi, when you played in a situation where you're trying to play the high notes are you relaxed or do you get excited or nervous? Some time ago I played in a group with a guy who sounded great in the practices and rehearsals, he even had a great practice room DHC. But, when we played out in public it was a different story. His focus was all wrong and he would get so nervous he would blow the licks, time, notes and not be able to play much above high C. He focused on the audience and not missing so much it unnerved him and he missed. So, take a breath, shoulders down, chest up, relax and just play.

Have you ever seen the movie For The Love of the Game. When Kevin Costner gets ready to pitch at the beginning of each inning he psyches himself into the concentration by saying "Turn on the mechanism", tunes out the crowd and goes to work. When I perform my focus is totally on the conductor, the music, listening to the ensemble, relax, play. No distractions, they are tuned out.

Dave


Answering your first question, i just start thinking of the note in my head and visualizing it and then if i do i start thinking about how high it is and how much air ill need.
Edit: the same thing you described happens to me.
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trolarg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Anytime you introduce a change it can take weeks for the full effect to be realized. Don't celebrate too much the little breakthroughs and don't sweat the occasional bad days. Go back to your routine before your high note breakthrough and get back into your old groove. Then try to approach how you got the extra range incrementally, very slowly and carefully. If your gains don't hold or they introduce problems then you need to back off and come at it from another direction.
Before that i was doing the Claude Gordon daily routines but i had stopped due to it taking so long and i couldnt practice the competition pieces
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falado
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trolarg wrote:
falado wrote:
Hi, when you played in a situation where you're trying to play the high notes are you relaxed or do you get excited or nervous? Some time ago I played in a group with a guy who sounded great in the practices and rehearsals, he even had a great practice room DHC. But, when we played out in public it was a different story. His focus was all wrong and he would get so nervous he would blow the licks, time, notes and not be able to play much above high C. He focused on the audience and not missing so much it unnerved him and he missed. So, take a breath, shoulders down, chest up, relax and just play.

Have you ever seen the movie For The Love of the Game. When Kevin Costner gets ready to pitch at the beginning of each inning he psyches himself into the concentration by saying "Turn on the mechanism", tunes out the crowd and goes to work. When I perform my focus is totally on the conductor, the music, listening to the ensemble, relax, play. No distractions, they are tuned out.

Dave


Answering your first question, i just start thinking of the note in my head and visualizing it and then if i do i start thinking about how high it is and how much air ill need.
Edit: the same thing you described happens to me.


There's a book you may find interesting called "The Inner Game Of Music", check it out. I do the CG SA too. I always start my day with flexibility exercises, Irons, Colin, or Smith, slurred and tongued. This sets me up for the day. I do this under the guidance of a GC trumpet teacher. If I'm having troubles as you describe, I start thinking: Am I relaxing, where's my tongue, breathing, etc., but don't over analyze. Sometimes I play my best when I just play. Don't think about it, just play. If it's still a problem you may consider going back (you should be working on) fundamentals, Arban and Clark. Can you just open the Arban to any page and play it? Don't forget to rest as much as you play. If you're having performance anxiety over playing in front of people, then play for an audience (friends, relatives, strangers even) every chance you get and get over the nerves. I know pros that get nervous and occasionally I do (depending on the solo and venue), but I conquer it by focusing and PPP (Proper Prior Preparation).

Hope this helps. Dave
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trolarg wrote:
Before that i was doing the Claude Gordon daily routines but i had stopped due to it taking so long and i couldnt practice the competition pieces


It seems like you've answered your own question here. It isn't mental.

It looks like you have three options.
1. Continue to ignore your fundamentals and wonder why you are struggling.
2. Return to the full routine you were doing and come up with a way to efficiently work on your competition pieces.
3. Modify your fundamental routines to allow maintenance/progress while still leaving time to practice your competition pieces.

All of the fine approaches to dealing with performance psychology won't help you if your foundation isn't firm.
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Arjuna
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Is it a mental problem? Reply with quote

Study Arturo Sandoval's warm up video.
Practice Maggio part 1 as Arturo Sandoval practices it.
Rest 10-15 minutes then practice Maggio part 2.
Get up early allowing an 1.5-2 hours before school.
Practice this 5-6 days per week.
Always take 1-2 days off per week just not in a row.
Practice slowly and softly.
Practice Caruso's 6 note exercise.
Practice Schlossberg 3 times per week.
Practice 20-30 minute sessions then rest 1 hour between sessions.
Practice Irons 3 times per week.



trolarg wrote:
About, say 1-2 weeks ago, before class started i was playing so well, i was hitting high E daily and it was sounding loud and stuff, it was when i had first broken the barrier, that was about 1 week before school started, once it did i wanted to show it off to my classmates because he's known for doing these really high notes so i did but it sounded so weak and dull, but i didnt care and kept practicing as normal, but soon leading after that week, High E went away, and soon Eb, and then D. Now i can barely get a C to sound loud. The only time i can play like i did when i had the E is when we play some songs that we have for a competition in Berklee. I dont know what to do honestly and im scared i might not perform well at the competition because of this problem. Please send help

Edit: I go to a specialized music school so practice time isnt the issue
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why you were able to hit the notes and now can't is purely physical, the "mental" part is awareness of what you were doing to hit those notes. Admittedly this can be easier said than done.

You've learned it's possible for you to reach those notes, and unless you've had some catastrophic, profound physical change - busted lip, lost teeth, paralysis - you can do it again, and then some.

You need to figure out what you did to hit the E. What I see as the problem with a lot of typical methodology is it takes you through practice and just hopes you sort of fall into increasing range with no real specific understanding of what you're doing.

Once upon a time hitting a musically useful E would have been inconceivable to me, even practicing and playing hours every day. Now I practice a fraction of what I used to and expect an E to be there. What it *isn't* the result of is endless range-building exercises per se, but rather being attuned to elements of what I'm doing.

Try this - get warmed up and start playing some kind of graduated exercise, one octave scales or arpeggios. Start low, play low C to middle C at a moderate volume. Something you know you can hit easily. Hold the top note - really be aware of what's going on. Watch yourself in a mirror. As you hold the top note gradually play it louder and really pay attention to what's going on. What is your top lip doing, what is your bottom lip doing. Where is the tension all around your embouchure and how is it focused. Horn angle, how much pressure are you using, how open are your teeth, tongue/throat arch. Where are your lips in relation to your teeth? Balance of pressure top lip vs bottom lip. How is your lower jaw set? As you play louder observe what changes. Now, snatch the horn off your lip and don't change anything - observe how everything is set. Now do it again, with a scale or arpeggio a half step higher. Make sure that top note is full every time.

What I'm looking to happen is that you're going to be forced to have your chops set to play a big, full note. Pay close attention to what's going on with your chops as you go higher. What's different say between a low C and a high C? Between a middle C and a G on top of the staff and a high C? When you get to the top of how high you can go doing this, see if you can go a half step higher. What do you have to change? Move more air? Higher tongue arch? Changed lip tension?
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trolarg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Why you were able to hit the notes and now can't is purely physical, the "mental" part is awareness of what you were doing to hit those notes. Admittedly this can be easier said than done.

You've learned it's possible for you to reach those notes, and unless you've had some catastrophic, profound physical change - busted lip, lost teeth, paralysis - you can do it again, and then some.

You need to figure out what you did to hit the E. What I see as the problem with a lot of typical methodology is it takes you through practice and just hopes you sort of fall into increasing range with no real specific understanding of what you're doing.

Once upon a time hitting a musically useful E would have been inconceivable to me, even practicing and playing hours every day. Now I practice a fraction of what I used to and expect an E to be there. What it *isn't* the result of is endless range-building exercises per se, but rather being attuned to elements of what I'm doing.

Try this - get warmed up and start playing some kind of graduated exercise, one octave scales or arpeggios. Start low, play low C to middle C at a moderate volume. Something you know you can hit easily. Hold the top note - really be aware of what's going on. Watch yourself in a mirror. As you hold the top note gradually play it louder and really pay attention to what's going on. What is your top lip doing, what is your bottom lip doing. Where is the tension all around your embouchure and how is it focused. Horn angle, how much pressure are you using, how open are your teeth, tongue/throat arch. Where are your lips in relation to your teeth? Balance of pressure top lip vs bottom lip. How is your lower jaw set? As you play louder observe what changes. Now, snatch the horn off your lip and don't change anything - observe how everything is set. Now do it again, with a scale or arpeggio a half step higher. Make sure that top note is full every time.

What I'm looking to happen is that you're going to be forced to have your chops set to play a big, full note. Pay close attention to what's going on with your chops as you go higher. What's different say between a low C and a high C? Between a middle C and a G on top of the staff and a high C? When you get to the top of how high you can go doing this, see if you can go a half step higher. What do you have to change? Move more air? Higher tongue arch? Changed lip tension?


Thank you for the advice, ill be sure to practice this way more often! It seems usually when i practice i dont pay attention as much as i should
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Is it a mental problem? Reply with quote

trolarg wrote:
About, say 1-2 weeks ago, before class started i was playing so well, i was hitting high E daily and it was sounding loud and stuff, it was when i had first broken the barrier, that was about 1 week before school started, once it did i wanted to show it off to my classmates because he's known for doing these really high notes so i did but it sounded so weak and dull, but i didnt care and kept practicing as normal, but soon leading after that week, High E went away, and soon Eb, and then D. Now i can barely get a C to sound loud. The only time i can play like i did when i had the E is when we play some songs that we have for a competition in Berklee. I dont know what to do honestly and im scared i might not perform well at the competition because of this problem. Please send help

Edit: I go to a specialized music school so practice time isnt the issue


98% of all trumpet playerd never play a musical tone sbove a concert High C. And while there are several different embouchure types as well as differing principles between the two?

The inability to play above high C is either caused by

A. Lack of air support. Or,
B. You upper lip is not in a position to allow the free flow of air into the mouthpiece. So that it allows the airstream to vibrate.

And the answer is usually "B".

This is basic stuff and I will never understand why it is not mentioned more often.

In the case of the O/P? It is very easy to understand his limitation.

At certain times his chops are fresh. They can vibrate freely and he plays to high E. However his upper lip is only marginally available below his upper teeth.

So that when he gets fatigued or swollen chops the sound will cut out.

The answer for him is (as it is for the other 98%) to drop a bit more upper lip below his upper teeth. At this placement the high E's and above will last much longer.

Previously various high note methods had achieved sporadic success by encouraging trumpet players to "pucker" more. And occasionally puckering does allow a little more upper lip to descend below the upper teeth. THAT is what helped the high notes.

Problem with the puckering method is that its practicioners often must take the mouthpiece off their lips after reaching a certain tone. Then re-set and continue playing higher. This is a more limiting matter.

Because if the trumpet player merely kept a little more upper lip below his upper teeth? His registers would all connect.

He ought to be able to blow from low F# to at least G above high C with a little practice.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trolarg wrote:
Thank you for the advice, ill be sure to practice this way more often! It seems usually when i practice i dont pay attention as much as i should

Something I should have emphasized more - don't be timid about moving a lot of air.
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trolarg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
trolarg wrote:
Thank you for the advice, ill be sure to practice this way more often! It seems usually when i practice i dont pay attention as much as i should

Something I should have emphasized more - don't be timid about moving a lot of air.

Im sorry but what do you mean by this??
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