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ATrumpetBrony
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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:04 pm Post subject: Getting there, but... |
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I'll be taking lessons with a good friend / local lead and jazz player within the next two weeks (schedules have crashed EVERY time thus far).
But before I do that, I just wanted to feel out the forums a bit to see what I can do to get some tips on the following...
These days, I can get a high C with maybe 65% certainty that I'll hit it (rather than landing on the Bb). If my chops are feeling it, I can most times control the dynamics on it (maybe a mf to a f). If I visualize a line properly and am completely prepared, I can often play the note. If I'm badly prepared, I can't.
High G is perhaps 90% if I haven't been rough with my chops that day. Just about every day, (depending on how my chops feel, but still pretty consistently) I can VERY quietly and VEEERY inaccurately squeak out a tiny D# or E over high C, sometimes even up to a Gb, usually as a gliss from High Bb or C (not that I DO! just that I can!). Yesterday I squeaked up to a high G. Then recorded it to see if it was the real deal.. but only got the Gb  . It takes LOADS of concentration and focus to allow my air and mouth to change to get the pitch locked in as closely as possible.
So you know the question... what am I supposed to be doing so that THOSE tiny, TIIINY, high-pitched squeaks can actually begin to develop into notes? Is it a matter of developing blowing power? Improving lip flexibility? Is it just chop strength?
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Getting there, but... |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | So you know the question... what am I supposed to be doing so that THOSE tiny, TIIINY, high-pitched squeaks can actually begin to develop into notes? Is it a matter of developing blowing power? Improving lip flexibility? Is it just chop strength? |
I'm of the conviction is that most of it is finding the right way to do it. You can beat your head against the wall and continue to do things in a way that don't get you there for years. You can have a lot of "strength" but still be missing the boat as to what you need to do. It's almost a guarantee that you have enough strength to play higher, what you lack is training everything to do what it needs to do.
For me breaking through some longtime barriers involved becoming aware of what I was doing with my chops (lips, teeth,mouth cavity/tongue, jaw, air) and making it repeatable. There's a Youtube trumpet vlogger Rufflips who says something to that effect - that the real key is finding out how to do it, that it's not all about building up massive strength.
I would advise you to also be aware of and experiment with the angle of the instrument which can make a difference. Subtle changes can make a difference.
I'll also say that the mouthpiece can make a difference. I played a Jet-Tone T1A for a long time. When I first started playing it, I liked it because it was comfortable and I could function on it better than Bachs and Bach-similar mp's but now I can see the Jet-Tone was holding me back. I went to a Schilke 14A4A which I believe was an improvement and then recently discovered the Yamaha Bobby Shew Lead which I find to be an even bigger improvement. Neither are as shallow as the T1A but I have more dependable range than with the T1A and I believe better sound. Now, once upon a time I think I wouldn't have been successful on either the Schilke or the Yamaha because I didn't have the same handle on chops function. Also while I still don't find Bach-style mp's to be optimally comfortable, I can function on them better than I once could.
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Lionel
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Getting there, but... |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | I'll be taking lessons with a good friend / local lead and jazz player within the next two weeks (schedules have crashed EVERY time thus far).
But before I do that, I just wanted to feel out the forums a bit to see what I can do to get some tips on the following...
These days, I can get a high C with maybe 65% certainty that I'll hit it (rather than landing on the Bb). If my chops are feeling it, I can most times control the dynamics on it (maybe a mf to a f). If I visualize a line properly and am completely prepared, I can often play the note. If I'm badly prepared, I can't.
High G is perhaps 90% if I haven't been rough with my chops that day. Just about every day, (depending on how my chops feel, but still pretty consistently) I can VERY quietly and VEEERY inaccurately squeak out a tiny D# or E over high C, sometimes even up to a Gb, usually as a gliss from High Bb or C (not that I DO! just that I can!). Yesterday I squeaked up to a high G. Then recorded it to see if it was the real deal.. but only got the Gb . It takes LOADS of concentration and focus to allow my air and mouth to change to get the pitch locked in as closely as possible.
So you know the question... what am I supposed to be doing so that THOSE tiny, TIIINY, high-pitched squeaks can actually begin to develop into notes? Is it a matter of developing blowing power? Improving lip flexibility? Is it just chop strength? |
1. Probably some of your question can be answered by your development of a clearer understanding of physical law. And yes, I believe that I do have that understanding and could share that with you if you're so inclined. I can only guarantee that nothing I tell you could ever hurt you.
2. I would bet that a little mouthpiece experimentation could work like a godsend for you. If you want? Contact me via pm and in my spare time I can happily carve a piece that is much easier for you to progress on. Sorry at present I do not have plating facilities. But for now my work is cheap to scot free in price. And ya cant beat free with a stick....
3. Do not overdo this but by practicing developing volume on those notes a perfect fifth to a full octave lower than your highest note can eventually fatten your whole register up.
Oftentimes the progressing trumpet player sees his extreme register as something removed from his normal range. Indeed it is not. What's good for the goose? Is good for the gander. In other words those with weak high G's? Also have weak tone everywhere.
Build up your middle and bottom and the top end will take care if itself. Like my financial advisor said,
"Watch the nickels and dimes and the dollars will take care of themselves".
Smart man, old Carl was!
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GeorgeB
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:52 am Post subject: |
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" Build up your middle and bottom and the top end will take care of itself. "
That piece of advice is priceless !!!!!!
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Grits Burgh
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:03 am Post subject: |
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If you are serious about increasing your range above High C, my best advice would be to first buy the Claude Gordon Systematic Approach (and all associated books, Clarks, Arban, St. Jacome, etc.). Second (before practicing any of these) book some lessons with John Mohan (or another CG qualified instructor). Third, practice, practice, practice - but practice the right way. There is no short cut.
Others here will suggest different paths to achieve your goals. They might work for you. Then again, they might not.
I wish you all the best on your trumpet journey.
Grits
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Brad361
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| GeorgeB wrote: | " Build up your middle and bottom and the top end will take care of itself. "
That piece of advice is priceless !!!!!! |
Not always, just my opinion here (like who ELSE'S would it be.😉). To me, that's too abstract, in the same vein as "just create a beautiful sound." That's true, but it's also often not that simple, if it was I'm not sure that most of us would need teachers.
I absolutely agree that we need to work on having a consistent, open and resonant sound throughout our range, but for many students the upper register requires specific work/practice. Everyone is different, some aspects of playing come more naturally to some players, but many need a specific approach for developing the upper register, that was my personal experience, and I see the same thing with many students.
And though it goes without saying, guess I'll say it anyway, especially IF the OP is a younger student: yes, range is important, but students need to avoid the trap of too much time spent on range at the expense of other aspects of playing. We've all seen people (sometimes those who HAVE no upper register) say it's not needed, I'm not saying that at all, just don't become obsessed with it at the expense of the other important aspects. (And if the OP is NOT a student, mea culpa).😎
Brad
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snichols
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Your teacher should have insight on range issues, being a lead player. That being said...
Work on playing softly through the entire range of the instrument. Play soft, pianissimo scales, chromatic scales, and slurs from the middle of your register, down below the staff, and up above the staff. This will train some control of your chops and you can gradually increase how high you go. Your goal should be a good quality sound with smooth transitions, always having control, and not using a ton of pressure.
Start soft, build the chop strength, and graduate to higher notes and louder volumes.
... and do whatever your teacher says... |
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Alrighty boys, figured it couldn't hurt to give a little update.
In a bit over a month, I've increased my actual USEABLE range up to maybe a strong A or A#, topping out at a strong-but-dodgy C#. Still not "high", but I'm aiming to make beautiful music first!
I stupidly have not yet spoken with my teacher about the high range, I'll do that in my next lesson. But for now, it wouldn't hurt to come to you guys for some tips about these two issues:
- when jumping up to the high range, especially octave jumps and after playing long passages (I've been going through Telleman's 12 Heroic Marches lately. Good stuff!!), those higher A's and B's pretty much always universally get this slightly crackly, unstable (sometimes flat- sometimes wavery), thin sound, unlike when I'm through a warmup and can blow a loud, full and clean D over high C repeatedly without that sound. Any practices I can do to sort of "firm up" and thicken up the tone at the top of my range so that it keeps that fullness the whole way up the range? Generally once I recognize total fatigue, I stop, but I can usually play these notes out of context with no problem, but once I get to playing they get wobbly. Not sure if it's fatigue, weakness, slow air...
- It is absolutely **impossible** to produce a jaw vibrato at the top of the range. With my hand, I've got more control, but I think it looks silly and doesn't feel proper for the sound I'm going for. What do I need to do to be able to produce a better-sounding jaw vibrato up there- one where I won't start dropping partials if I do something slightly wrong?
Like I said- haven't spoken to my teacher much about the high range. I honestly don't know how high he can blow, but from what I've heard him play, he's a solid lead player. The advice he's given me in lead playing has mostly had to do with big band style- he's admittedly not so much of a classical player.
Now, my intention is to build the highest/purest level of technique/best tone I can. I listen mostly to big band and jazz/swing, but classical trumpet has a place in my heart that makes me pursue it more because I KNOW that I, as a musician, have a lot of "feel" and "groove", but I've never had the time or patience to practice technique. I think stylistically, RIGHT now I could play lead better on a Shiny Stockings chart than I could play on any Brahms piece. Just some insight on me 
(sorry if my writing is a bit odd. Restless at 3am, and I've been examining my latest practice sessions with hopes of getting answers on these issues.)
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | - when jumping up to the high range, especially octave jumps and after playing long passages (I've been going through Telleman's 12 Heroic Marches lately. Good stuff!!), |
I'm curious - how do you work on anything in any style if you're as clueless as you say you are about reading in treble cleff?
Can you post video of yourself playing through your range?
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | - when jumping up to the high range, especially octave jumps and after playing long passages (I've been going through Telleman's 12 Heroic Marches lately. Good stuff!!), |
I'm curious - how do you work on anything in any style if you're as clueless as you say you are about reading in treble cleff?
Can you post video of yourself playing through your range? |
Sure, I'll try to post something this coming week. Know that I'm playing through this stuff like at 60 BPM for note and rhythm accuracy and even still making mistakes
(My treble reading isn't ABSOLUTELY base, but my note and key recognition are so bad that my rhythm reading gets flustered.... At least that's the theory I've come to.
Not sure I mentioned it, but I CAN look at ANY note with ANY accidental in the treble staff and play it correctly with no problem. It's when you start adding accidentals to notes and keys that I lose my 'center', especially in pieces where there's a freer tonal center. I do quite well when I've heard a tune or part played before though.)
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Robert P
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: |
(My treble reading isn't ABSOLUTELY base, but my note and key recognition are so bad that my rhythm reading gets flustered.... At least that's the theory I've come to.
Not sure I mentioned it, but I CAN look at ANY note with ANY accidental in the treble staff and play it correctly with no problem. It's when you start adding accidentals to notes and keys that I lose my 'center', especially in pieces where there's a freer tonal center. I do quite well when I've heard a tune or part played before though.) |
I gotta be honest your descriptions come across as jumbled and inconsistent. I would suggest posting video of yourself sight reading something to give a more accurate gauge of what your skill level is.
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dstdenis
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | - when jumping up to the high range, especially octave jumps and after playing long passages (I've been going through Telemann's 12 Heroic Marches lately. Good stuff!!), those higher A's and B's pretty much always universally get this slightly crackly, unstable (sometimes flat- sometimes wavery), thin sound, unlike when I'm through a warmup and can blow a loud, full and clean D over high C repeatedly without that sound. Any practices I can do to sort of "firm up" and thicken up the tone at the top of my range so that it keeps that fullness the whole way up the range? Generally once I recognize total fatigue, I stop, but I can usually play these notes out of context with no problem, but once I get to playing they get wobbly. Not sure if it's fatigue, weakness, slow air... |
Telemann's Heroic Marches are fantastic!
Lip slurs are great for developing strength (e.g. Arban 42-45). Arpeggio drills are great for improving accuracy and a full, even sound across your range (e.g. Franquin 178-204, including all the transpositions). Take both in small enough doses so you don't wear yourself out.
I've been working out of the Franquin method a lot lately, and I think it has excellent advice that's also relevant to your question:
| Franquin wrote: | You should not continue to play if you feel defectiveness in the notes as a result of tiredness of the lips. Immediately remove the instrument from your mouth...
To achieve, through study, the high register on the Trumpet, it is essential to work progressively rather than yielding to the temptation to play the highest notes without preparation, a stipulation which is very difficult to observe. Failure to comply with this principle is often the reason why one makes no progress on this path.
It is therefore important to start by playing an easy note in search of making it supple, rounded, rich and pure {Study of production of sounds}. For as long as this result is not achieved, it is futile and detrimental to try to reach higher, whatever the degree of the note. One proceeds thus, working on the quality of sound every day, up to the high note which one reasonably wishes to achieve. |
Franquin was an acclaimed soloist who performed high trumpet parts during the rebirth of interest in baroque music, so he knew what he was talking about.
| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | - It is absolutely **impossible** to produce a jaw vibrato at the top of the range. With my hand, I've got more control, but I think it looks silly and doesn't feel proper for the sound I'm going for. What do I need to do to be able to produce a better-sounding jaw vibrato up there- one where I won't start dropping partials if I do something slightly wrong? |
Sure it's possible to produce a jaw vibrato up high, but it's difficult if you're barely clinging to your highest note. You have to be comfortably locked into the note. Once you've got that, vibrato is easy (assuming you've already developed that skill in your medium range).
Try Franquin's advice with this too: play a beautiful vibrato on a lower note where you can control it, and gradually work your way up over time while maintaining a beautiful sound.
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Brad361
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | ATrumpetBrony wrote: |
(My treble reading isn't ABSOLUTELY base, but my note and key recognition are so bad that my rhythm reading gets flustered.... At least that's the theory I've come to.
Not sure I mentioned it, but I CAN look at ANY note with ANY accidental in the treble staff and play it correctly with no problem. It's when you start adding accidentals to notes and keys that I lose my 'center', especially in pieces where there's a freer tonal center. I do quite well when I've heard a tune or part played before though.) |
I gotta be honest your descriptions come across as jumbled and inconsistent. I would suggest posting video of yourself sight reading something to give a more accurate gauge of what your skill level is. |
Pretty much what I thought also. This IS a trumpet forum, so while these sort of problems being discussed by the OP are certainly not inappropriate to discuss here, I don't really think anyone other than his teacher, in person, is going to be able to be of much help to him. Way too much is being lost/misinterpreted in his descriptions of his situation, in my opinion. No offense intended to the OP, I just think he needs to take this offline and take it to his teacher. IF his teacher can't help him (I would hope he can), maybe he needs to talk to a different teacher, but that can be a slippery slope; sometimes students decide their teacher can't help them because the student does not really KNOW what needs to be corrected.
Brad
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | | Pretty much what I thought also. This IS a trumpet forum, so while these sort of problems being discussed by the OP are certainly not inappropriate to discuss here, I don't really think anyone other than his teacher, in person, is going to be able to be of much help to him. |
I understand the thoughts, Brad... It's just that my teacher isn't always available to help - and there are quite honestly a number of players here with more experience/skill than he has (he's a college senior majoring in jazz-focused music performance). I like to get a multi-faceted view of things can be done, and use that to construct something that might work well for me personally.
This is my first time having a teacher, though. I'm not exactly sure what my job is, per se - he's the kinda guy who sits down and says, "What are we working on today" - so I suppose I'VE got to come prepared with what I want to work on, but for lack of playing in groups or anything I haven't previously had any music prepared (until now, at least).
Sorry for the inconsistencies - that last post about sight reading was pretty rage-infused and emotional, so it may have been a little exaggerated.
Either way, my teacher would definitely say I suck at sight reading, that he knows by now.
Yeah, I don't know. I'll just keep practicing I guess.
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Brad361
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| ATrumpetBrony wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | | Pretty much what I thought also. This IS a trumpet forum, so while these sort of problems being discussed by the OP are certainly not inappropriate to discuss here, I don't really think anyone other than his teacher, in person, is going to be able to be of much help to him. |
I understand the thoughts, Brad... It's just that my teacher isn't always available to help - and there are quite honestly a number of players here with more experience/skill than he has (he's a college senior majoring in jazz-focused music performance). I like to get a multi-faceted view of things can be done, and use that to construct something that might work well for me personally.
This is my first time having a teacher, though. I'm not exactly sure what my job is, per se - he's the kinda guy who sits down and says, "What are we working on today" - so I suppose I'VE got to come prepared with what I want to work on, but for lack of playing in groups or anything I haven't previously had any music prepared (until now, at least).
Sorry for the inconsistencies - that last post about sight reading was pretty rage-infused and emotional, so it may have been a little exaggerated.
Either way, my teacher would definitely say I suck at sight reading, that he knows by now.
Yeah, I don't know. I'll just keep practicing I guess. |
I get it, and again, I'm not criticizing you for asking questions here.
At the risk of being unfair to your teacher, maybe you need to find another one? I had one particular private teacher in college who was a great guy and a great player, but was a bit too "easy" on me. I switched to another professor who was pretty much a maniac during my lessons (which were REALLY stressful), but he pushed me into developing technique that I never would have thought I was capable of.
Again, in fairness to your teacher, maybe you need to have a conversation with him about the direction you would like your lessons to go?
Brad
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Richard III
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Again, in fairness to your teacher, maybe you need to have a conversation with him about the direction you would like your lessons to go? |
Life is like that. People come back from their teacher and are not sure what is going on. They are passive. It is a partnership. It is also an employee and employer relationship. The teacher is being paid by you to do a job. What do you want from them? Contracts developed lead more often to success when the goals are plain.
The last lesson I had recently I went in with goals. I asked for help in those areas. My teacher gave me ideas and suggestions for other goals. We worked together. My lessons were a month apart. When there are goals to be met, that takes work. The work doesn't have to happen in the teacher's room, it should happen in your practice room.
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Robert P
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Clearly you need a different teacher. What you're describing- some guy who's a student with his plate full, inconsistent lesson appointments, etc. If you're not paying much you're getting your money's worth.
Your teacher shouldn't be asking "what are we working on" - he should know what kind of skills are necessary for you to work on and directing you what to work on, keeping a log of what you've been doing and a sense of whether you're making progress. He should also be prepared to fire you as a student if you're slacking and not coming to lessons prepared, not demonstrating that you're working, haven't made it a priority.
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Last edited by Robert P on Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:19 am Post subject: |
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IMHO, a lot of time is wasted playing high range drills. Life is too short for that. Why not play real music up a step at a time until your range is satisfactory?
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ATrumpetBrony
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Robert P"
I would suggest posting video of yourself sight reading something to give a more accurate gauge of what your skill level is.[/quote]
I haven't forgotten this - my computer's been acting up HARDCORE this week (installed a new hard drive dual-booting Ubuntu and Win 7- a conversation for another day:D ) so I wasn't able to edit the clips and audio together. I DO want feedback on my sight-reading though. I went and just played a couple pages/parts of pieces from a book, we'll see how they came out when I post the video of me playing.
| jhatpro wrote: | | IMHO, a lot of time is wasted playing high range drills. Life is too short for that. Why not play real music up a step at a time until your range is satisfactory? |
I'll take that idea and run with it.
But what if the stuff I'm playing is at a point one half step outside of my usable range? Find something else? Or... keep trying??
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GeorgeB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | IMHO, a lot of time is wasted playing high range drills. Life is too short for that. Why not play real music up a step at a time until your range is satisfactory? |
Sounds like pretty good advice to me.
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GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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