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help becoming lead trumpet


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ATrumpetBrony
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Listen to Tim. Ignore literally everyone else on this thread.


Mike, would you *not* suggest that personal issues be taken up on a personal basis? What would you do if there was, maybe, a jerk in your section who might not actually realize it? I, for one, would gladly accept constructive criticism on how i can better approach my peers and co-workers.


but I dunno. Maybe I've got a bit of a different culture.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Listen to Tim. Ignore literally everyone else on this thread.


Very quizzical paradox if he ignores "literally everyone else" but Tim, that would include you and your suggestions, Mr Sailors.

🤔
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Best advice: Stop asking for free help on web sites and GET WITH A GOOD PRIVATE TEACHER.

That's the only way improvement will happen.

You need someone in the same room as you who can watch everything you do (physically) and then make adjustments as they see are needed.

It can't be done by Skype or Face Time - it has to be live and in-person. There are WAY too many variables that can come into play that are easily missed unless a teacher can watch EVERYTHING you do.


+1.
The internet can be a great resource, but it's not a replacement for a private teacher. And pretty much anyone CAN afford a teacher if they really make the effort, and get creative. That might mean making sacrifices in other areas, but it can be done IF it's really a priority, and if the OP really wants to improve, he should find a way to get a teacher.

Brad
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a real obstacle here. Telling someone to get a "good teacher" is only slightly more helpful as telling them - just play, don't think about it - or some such malarky. I realize there are a lot of advocates for that approach.

Who is this "good" teacher? I have had about 3-4 teachers between age 12-20. The main thing they taught was musicality or working through difficult pieces. As Pops has said elsewhere, trumpet teaching is in the Dark Ages and we are often put in the can-play box or the can't-play box.

It was only when the Internet came along in the 2000s (for me) that I discovered a whole new world of trumpet ideas and some actual, physical, practical reasons why one might find oneself in the "can't play" box.

A "good teacher" must be fairly rare or be a specialist in embouchures. If you pick a teacher who believes you should only think about breath and air support (I had plenty of that) then you could have a 20 year trajectory of playing difficulties in front of you. On the other hand, that could've been just what you need.

For all the suggestions to get a good teacher, there needs to be some extra suggestions how you might choose a good teacher.
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furcifer
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in a similar situation. Freshman, beat everybody but one senior. The next year, I knew I was gonna need some chops, so I did Drum Corps for a season. You've got the Sacramento Mandarins RIGHT THERE... I'm sure they can give you LOTS of recommendations, including local teachers, too, if you're not quite ready to commit to that. That kind of experience is the kind that can't be gained by playing with only your school band. It's also just good to know people in that world, because a LOT of strong players come out of Drum Corps.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
trpthrld wrote:
Best advice: Stop asking for free help on web sites and GET WITH A GOOD PRIVATE TEACHER.

That's the only way improvement will happen.

You need someone in the same room as you who can watch everything you do (physically) and then make adjustments as they see are needed.

It can't be done by Skype or Face Time - it has to be live and in-person. There are WAY too many variables that can come into play that are easily missed unless a teacher can watch EVERYTHING you do.


+1.
The internet can be a great resource, but it's not a replacement for a private teacher. And pretty much anyone CAN afford a teacher if they really make the effort, and get creative. That might mean making sacrifices in other areas, but it can be done IF it's really a priority, and if the OP really wants to improve, he should find a way to get a teacher.

Brad


Without knowing the OP's circumstances this is very presumptuous. Shaming the OP by implying he's not serious about improving if he doesn't hire a private teacher is not appropriate.

I'm in agreement that the internet is not a replacement for a private teacher who can actually observe the student. However, I've seen students who worked with "teachers" who seriously messed them up. There are teachers who can really teach and there are teachers who are teachers in name only. How does the OP tell the difference for certain up front, before he's led down a path that ultimately hinders/limits his progress by someone he has erroneously trusted?

There's a lot of talk here on TH about "getting a teacher" but there's very little talk about how to identify an effective teacher. It's not as easy as people want to make it seem. "Any teacher" is not better than "no teacher" if the "teacher" is messing the student up. Having a private teacher is not a mandatory prerequisite for the student to improve. Practicing diligently is a mandatory prerequisite for the student to improve.

If you have the right teacher you can improve more rapidly because you're being instructed in the right way to practice the right things. However, finding the "right" teacher is easier said than done. How many teachers are genuine chop doctors, people who can identify, diagnose and show the student how to correct problems with the mechanics of playing?

The most important element in improving will always be the willingness of the student to put in the time and effort to practice the techniques which lead to proficiency. It's not impossible to become a proficient player without a private teacher.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

epoustoufle wrote:
There is a real obstacle here. Telling someone to get a "good teacher" is only slightly more helpful as telling them - just play, don't think about it - or some such malarky. I realize there are a lot of advocates for that approach.

Who is this "good" teacher? I have had about 3-4 teachers between age 12-20. The main thing they taught was musicality or working through difficult pieces. As Pops has said elsewhere, trumpet teaching is in the Dark Ages and we are often put in the can-play box or the can't-play box.

It was only when the Internet came along in the 2000s (for me) that I discovered a whole new world of trumpet ideas and some actual, physical, practical reasons why one might find oneself in the "can't play" box.

A "good teacher" must be fairly rare or be a specialist in embouchures. If you pick a teacher who believes you should only think about breath and air support (I had plenty of that) then you could have a 20 year trajectory of playing difficulties in front of you. On the other hand, that could've been just what you need.

For all the suggestions to get a good teacher, there needs to be some extra suggestions how you might choose a good teacher.


Absolutely true.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be flamed for this as I have little experience and none of playing lead so this is totally my opinion and no-one elses.

Lead is not about turning up and showing off it is not even about being better, it is so much more.

Lead comes from years of very hard work, it comes from developing style and charisma.

lead can step up and inspire the band, lead can stand on his own unsupported if he has to, hangin it out there no hiding place.

Lead is about such solid ability as to never miss a note or an intro, lead is the driving force of the band. Lead will hide the poorer members when they need that and help show the abilities of the better members when they need that.

Lead draws audiences lead makes reputations. Lead is the backbone and foundation of the band.

Lead is not something you just become, its about professionalism drive and total reliability.

If you can shoulder that intense level of responsibility then you can play lead.

Personally I think you need a great deal more work, thats not a criticism just an observation that I dont think you are ready or will be for some time.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
Mike Sailors wrote:
Listen to Tim. Ignore literally everyone else on this thread.


Very quizzical paradox if he ignores "literally everyone else" but Tim, that would include you and your suggestions, Mr Sailors.

🤔


Don't hurt yourself trying to figure it out!
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reread the OP's post and further comments. I don't think we are all on the same page here. When talking about "lead" trumpet, I think he is talking about being 1st trumpet in band class.

The OP is in 9th grade, and is still at a stage where he has yet to really get a handle on basic fundamentals of the instrument. Scales, dexterity, flexibility, and just basic trumpet skills.

Sounds like he's never had a trumpet lesson from a teacher, or really has an understanding of what he wants beyond the social structure in band class of being in the 1st trumpet chair.

Any talks of "lead trumpet" playing in regards to big band responsibilities are moot and futile at this stage. I think the OP would benefit from learning the horn, working with a teacher or teachers, learn the basics, work on scales, studies, exercises and get a handle on the horn before getting in any more depth about the idiosyncratic roles of "lead trumpet" player.

I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
I reread the OP's post and further comments. I don't think we are all on the same page here. When talking about "lead" trumpet, I think he is talking about being 1st trumpet in band class.

The OP is in 9th grade, and is still at a stage where he has yet to really get a handle on basic fundamentals of the instrument. Scales, dexterity, flexibility, and just basic trumpet skills.

Sounds like he's never had a trumpet lesson from a teacher, or really has an understanding of what he wants beyond the social structure in band class of being in the 1st trumpet chair.

Any talks of "lead trumpet" playing in regards to big band responsibilities are moot and futile at this stage. I think the OP would benefit from learning the horn, working with a teacher or teachers, learn the basics, work on scales, studies, exercises and get a handle on the horn before getting in any more depth about the idiosyncratic roles of "lead trumpet" player.

I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.


Nah...

Dream big kid!
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In high school, if you want to "beat chairs" your biggest assets will be sight reading ability, knowing scales, being able to play with a nice sound, and ability to use dynamics.

K.I.S.S. Which if you don't know is an acronym for "keep it simple, stupid"

If you have a playable range to high D as you said, your ahead of the game. Most high school trumpet players don't have that kind of range. If you can just "hit a high D" that's a different story.

The best way to increase you sight reading skills is by sight reading often. Read everything you can get your hands on. If you don't have good internal time, use a metronome. But read read read read. That's a skill that is overlooked, and something that will make you really stand out.

Learn you scales NOW. Later when you get your skills up to speed, this will help more than you realize for improvising AND sight reading and theory, and transposing etc etc

Trumpet takes work. You never learn everything and always have room for improvement. Why waste time, especially if you are motivated and competitive.
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Tyler Alexander
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
I reread the OP's post and further comments. I don't think we are all on the same page here. When talking about "lead" trumpet, I think he is talking about being 1st trumpet in band class.

The OP is in 9th grade, and is still at a stage where he has yet to really get a handle on basic fundamentals of the instrument. Scales, dexterity, flexibility, and just basic trumpet skills.

Sounds like he's never had a trumpet lesson from a teacher, or really has an understanding of what he wants beyond the social structure in band class of being in the 1st trumpet chair.

Any talks of "lead trumpet" playing in regards to big band responsibilities are moot and futile at this stage. I think the OP would benefit from learning the horn, working with a teacher or teachers, learn the basics, work on scales, studies, exercises and get a handle on the horn before getting in any more depth about the idiosyncratic roles of "lead trumpet" player.

I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.




I'm in 10th and I've gotten help from my teacher a couple of times . I don't JUST want to be lead, I want to improve as much as I can in high school, and tryout for the state honor band. I want people to hear me and say "wow. He's really good." The person in front of me is a freshman, and it's my dream to also be in jazz band, and I don't want that taken from me next year. I want to have the best tone in my section and potentially the whole class.


This is what I found so far for private teachers. I'm willing to get a job to afford it.

https://www.musikalessons.com
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for reaching out Tyler. This post is not about trumpet playing. And to actually heed my advice takes a very strong individual with a true love of music as a fine art.

I discovered the "corporate" music program when my first pair of granddaughters starting playing in a very large, competitive music program. Here in Michigan and its environs the music programs are highly impacted by large music stores. Here it is Marshal Music.

They actually come into the schools and try out the students on instruments they later rent. The choices are limited to certain brands and specific mouthpieces. This is the beginning of students and their parents losing their individuality. Repairs must be done through this system as well.

The school system buys over $100,000 percussion equipment. Everything is very organized and students fiercely compete against each other for chairs and bands. "I am better than her or him." "His father is on the non-profit board"... and so on.

Music is limited to what will be performed at competitions. In the case of my granddaughters, they played the same competitive marching band music all year!

Through all this fog I tried to instill a love of music in my oldest granddaughter; that the music world was not the "corporate" world of music into which she was immersed.

So what does this have to do with Tyler? Well, listen to big band jazz and dance music. Do not try to sound as good as some kid next to you. Try to emulate the style of some of the great lead players like Snooky Young or Al Porcino. Maybe you cannot sound as good as them on the high notes for now but you can sound as good as them and others an octave lower.

When I first started studying with Carmine Caruso in New York City he did not say I do not sound as good as some kid at Ridge High in New Jersey, my school). He said I do not sound like the great studio players in New York. He said there was no reason I could not sound like Doc Severinsen on a middle G.

It is not about high notes. It about having the strength and trumpet prowess to play stylistically correct with meaning in a range that normal humans simply cannot do.

Look outside the "corporate" music department for a good teacher and listen to as much big band lead players and jazz music as you can.

BTW, my granddaughter is now at a good music school on a full 4 year scholarship for both neuroscience and music performance.

Best of luck Tyler.

Gordon Stump
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo Gordon,

You mentioned Al Porcino. I had him on my list of trumpet players earlier in this thread.

Man his sound is possibly my favorite of all the guys from that era. I think he is so underrated in today's circles of trumpet players. You rarely hear his name.

His sound, style, clarity, sense of swing, and core makes him one of my favorite trumpeters.

Al was definitely a controversial cat in his later years. Very outspoken, to his detriment unfortunately. After he left the US and moved to Europe, he led his own band and did some work here and there, but nothing like what earned him his name in the 60s. What a shame.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but thank you for your well though post. And best of luck to your granddaughter!!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning the subject of in-person vs. Skype lessons, if I were a young developing player I would sure rather take Skype lessons from a great teacher than in-person lessons from the typical local teacher. Note that I am not an unbiased source as I am one of those who gives Skype lessons.

That said, I can tell you that my students seem quiet happy with their progress, most studying with me for years and improving significantly during that time. I can see everything and hear everything I need to, whether doing a Skype or an in-person lesson.

Others who give Skype lessons, including Clint McLaughlin (Pops), Lynn Nicholson, Jeff Purtle and others have reported similar results.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested

P.S. The OP might want to read my story, as it started out pretty similar to his story:

https://www.purtle.com/how-i-became-a-student-of-claude-gordon-by-john-mohan
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Al Porcino

Im right now listening to some of those awesome Thad Jones/Mel Lewis recordings with Al on lead! That Live from Denmark record with Al and Snook in the trumpet section.

Such a slick groove!
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Tyler, I suggest you focus on things you can control and let go of worrying about things you can't control.

For example, to become a better lead player, you could listen to lots of recordings of great lead players, absorb their sense of style and try to replicate it in your playing. You could also continue to develop your fundamental trumpet skills, possibly studying with a really good teacher. Be the best musician you can be.

You can't control who else shows up to audition for the spot you want or how good they are. Say you didn't work very hard and didn't improve much, but nobody else shows up to contest the spot, so it's yours by default--would that be a great thing? Or suppose you work your tail off and become a really fine trumpet player, but then the next Doc Severinsen moves into town and takes your spot. Would that be a terrible thing?

Focus more on becoming the best musician you can be, less on your spot in the hierarchy. I think you'd enjoy it more, have a better rapport with your band mates, and actually improve your chance of success as well.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trpthrld wrote:
Best advice: Stop asking for free help on web sites and GET WITH A GOOD PRIVATE TEACHER.

That's the only way improvement will happen.

You need someone in the same room as you who can watch everything you do (physically) and then make adjustments as they see are needed.

It can't be done by Skype or Face Time - it has to be live and in-person. There are WAY too many variables that can come into play that are easily missed unless a teacher can watch EVERYTHING you do.


This is correct.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Things you can do on your own to be a better lead trumpet player.

Get the recording "Basie Straight Ahead"
Learn the lead trumpet parts by ear from the recording until you can play them exactly as on the recording.

When you have done that, get back to me.
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