Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:53 am Post subject:
The mouthpiece is our first step towards amplifying our desired sound. A great horn (however anyone may judge that) with a mediocre mouthpiece (again, however you want to think of this - damaged, inconsistencies in manufacturing, a size/approach that doesn't relate well to your set-up) will not necessarily yield great results. That said, I've been in the position several times of playing a $300 horn with a $350 mouthpiece and have been pleased with the results.
So, in answer to your question: Yes! There's a vitally-important point in playing the best mouthpiece (for you) you can on any instrument you can.
Best,
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
Firstly, it depends what came with it?
If, as expected, it's a generic 'no-name' 7c - then a higher quality piece that suits you is a worthwhile upgrade... It'll improve the performance of the overall package and still work well for you down the line when you upgrade the trumpet - if that size seems to fit well (ideally confirm this with a good teacher!!), a genuine Bach 7c or a good quality equivalent like a Yamaha 11c4 will probably give you a better setup and a mouthpiece it's worth building a longer term relationship with.
That said... If the trumpet itself has major flaws (especially WRT intonation), a mouthpiece change isn't going to magic those away - they'll still be there, perhaps slightly attenuated.
As always with threads like this - if you have a teacher, ask them and get some guidance on whether they feel it's worth it and what size they feel is best for you.
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:04 am Post subject:
maconsid wrote:
Thanks for that. Pretty sure its a generic 7c since I cant find a brand anywhere on the website listing or on the MP itself.
No teacher!
I think the intonation issues occur prior to the mouthpiece
You can be sure and be wrong. Genuine Bach 7Cs can be had very cheap on eBay. Why not get one and then you know what you have and it can serve as a jumping off point for a safari. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
In that case, it may well be worth replacing - does the 7c size feel appropriate (ie: you're not feeling like you're falling in or being cramped)?
I realise that might be a silly question if you're not experienced enough to know what those feel like - if it feels approximately right and you're making progress, that's probably good enough to assume that size is OK for now.
Obviously some issues are always going to be player over equipment - but better equipment does get better results, in my experience, and the less you have to compensate for, the easier it is to make good music and focus on what you need to improve rather than what in equipment you need to compensate for.
A better mouthpiece is definitely a worthwhile investment, and doesn't have to be expensive.
I mentioned the Yamaha because they're cheap even brand new and they play well - in value for money terms (atleast in the UK) they're hard to match. I'd also include JK (klier) as excellent pieces at good prices - both of those will be cheaper than a new Bach or Schilke but more than adequate.
Or you can go second hand...
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:56 am Post subject:
The mouthpiece fit is entirely separate from the horn. I wouldn't hesitate to try a variety of middle-of-the-road mouthpieces like the Bach 10.5C, 7C, 5C, 3C, or Yamaha 11C4 up to 14C4 (or the B cup version). I would stay clear of more specialized gear (inner diameter too big/small, and cups too deep or shallow). _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
I wear a 42R jacket. So if I go into a store and need a new suit that fits properly and looks good, I don't look at the 44L's or the 40S's. Likewise, no matter what the make, model, or relative value of the instrument, a proper mouthpiece fit is essential to maintain proper embouchure. So yes, a good mouthpiece will help a player get the most out of even the most inexpensive instrument.
OTOH, for everyday office wear, I'm going to choose a moderate worsted wool that wears well, avoiding extremes either way in fabrics or prices. Likewise, as stated above, one of the good middle-of-the-road mouthpieces should do well.
I mean, after all, no matter what the make or model of trumpet, think about how many Bach 7C's and 3C's (and their facsimiles and derivatives) are floating around out there collectively (and not just because they come "standard" with a new horn), probably more than all the rest of the world's mouthpieces put together. Why? They work. Maybe not for everybody. Maybe not "optimal" for all styles. But they work, and work well. And people (myself included) keep buying them. Because they work. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet
Thanks to all. I hadn't ventured into size matters issues! More the quality issue. I know the current is a 7c and has no branding anywhere I can find.
The only local music shop of note has two bachs 1/4c and 1/2c and a slew of Denis wicks. Otherwise it's online.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject:
I've played a good number of no-name mouthpieces and they've all been awful. In your position, I'd do one of two different things. A) Buy a few different pieces from a retailer who has a good return policy, return what you don't like. B) Scan the Marketplace, eBay or Amazon and buy some good, used, cheap models. The Bach and Yamaha pieces I've mentioned are very easy to find used. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece on a cheap trumpet
maconsid wrote:
Just wondering if there is any point in upgrading the mouthpiece on a cheap trumpet? Thomann TR-200.
Or is it a bit like putting lipstick on a pig??
if you upgrade a Thomann TR-200 with a 7c to a Thomann TR-200 with a 7c, I fail to see the upgrade. Ok the 7c might play a bit better if its authentic but to my mind it would be better to understand what mp you need and wish to go to first, be that a 3c or a 10.5c or something more radical
After all to swap a Ford Pinto 350 cu inch with a Ford Pinto 350 cu inch isnt really an upgrade even if the rings are better. A Pontiac Firebird 450 cu inch would be an upgrade. But could you handle it.
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece on a cheap trumpet
Bflatman wrote:
maconsid wrote:
Just wondering if there is any point in upgrading the mouthpiece on a cheap trumpet? Thomann TR-200.
Or is it a bit like putting lipstick on a pig??
if you upgrade a Thomann TR-200 with a 7c to a Thomann TR-200 with a 7c, I fail to see the upgrade. Ok the 7c might play a bit better if its authentic but to my mind it would be better to understand what mp you need and wish to go to first, be that a 3c or a 10.5c or something more radical
After all to swap a Ford Pinto 350 cu inch with a Ford Pinto 350 cu inch isnt really an upgrade even if the rings are better. A Pontiac Firebird 450 cu inch would be an upgrade. But could you handle it.
Your analogy is a faulty one though...
What we're talking about here isn't analogous to replacing one engine from the same manufacturer with the same cc, bhp and essential stats.
Your analogy would be more accurate if you'd talked about changing from a 350cc Ford Pinto engine to a modern 350cc Audi/BMW/Mercedes engine of considerably higher quality - one manufactured to better tolerances and providing better performance.
And yes, it's still a 350cc engine - but entirely different quality, different performance, different sound.
If you think the two pieces are in remotely the same ballpark just because they both say "7C" on the side, then you're just wrong.
They might be roughly the same size - but if the performance isn't remotely equivalent, then it's not a pointless upgrade.
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:42 am Post subject: Closure
Because we all need closure!!! I popped into the music shop and he recommended an arnolds and son 2.5c. He reckoned it was on a par with bach and size wise was taking the 7c training wheels off (his words!)
Tried it out and it does sound better, particularly in the upper registers. It didn't turn me in to maynard f, but what the hey!
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2322 Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Closure
maconsid wrote:
Because we all need closure!!! I popped into the music shop and he recommended an arnolds and son 2.5c. He reckoned it was on a par with bach and size wise was taking the 7c training wheels off (his words!)
Tried it out and it does sound better, particularly in the upper registers. It didn't turn me in to maynard f, but what the hey!
ugh... not the best resolution.. the "training wheels" comment - 7C is a mid-sized mouthpiece NOT a beginner mouthpiece, there is a distinction there.. we generally start with 7C neighborhood because it's mid-ground (most beginners are children) -adjust from there.
With that said, I'm less concerned with the mouthpiece and the instrument than I am that you have no teacher. I'd prefer you play on any ol' crap with a teacher than great equipment and no teacher.
"..it's the Indian, not the arrow..!" _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5464 Location: Suffolk, England
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Closure
maconsid wrote:
Because we all need closure!!! I popped into the music shop and he recommended an arnolds and son 2.5c. He reckoned it was on a par with bach and size wise was taking the 7c training wheels off (his words!)
Tried it out and it does sound better, particularly in the upper registers. It didn't turn me in to maynard f, but what the hey!
Hi maconsid
I'll make no comment regarding the knowledge of the music shop employee, or of his recommendation.
I have heard of Arnold and Sons in regards to lowered priced trumpet/cornet and flugel cases.
This is the first I have heard of them in regards to mouthpieces, and I have no idea of their quality, only that they appear to be priced much lower than Bach mouthpieces.
I googled Arnold and Sons mouthpieces and found the following:
These mouthpieces are exact copies of the famous American originals. State of the art production methods guarantee consistent high quality. With ascending numbers the cup depth gets flatter, and the cup diameter smaller. Generally speaking, the larger the mouthpiece, the more demanding for the player. All mouthpieces are made of brass, with 15 microns of silver plating. The gold plated versions have 15 microns of silver plating and 3 microns of gold plating.
Arnolds & Sons 2.5C Trumpet Mouthpiece - Silver Plate
Medium large cup, medium wide rim which is lower toward the outside. Large cup, brilliant, heroic, crisp C trumpet tone. For players with strong, muscular lips. Ideal for orchestral playing. 15 microns of silver plating on brass base.
The Arnold and Sons 2.5C is a copy of a Bach 2 1/2C, with a description copied from the description in the Bach mouthpiece manual for the Bach 2 1/2 C.
This is a bowl-shaped cup mouthpiece described by Bach as giving a brilliant, heroic, crisp C trumpet tone. This strongly suggests to me that this model was designed for C trumpet.
The Bach 2 1/2C is not a model which I would personally suggest. I would suggest the far more common 3C and 1 1 1/2C around this diameter, and I personally don't think that there would be anything wrong with a good quality 7C.
My advice would be to go back to the music shop, try a 7C, 5C, 3C and 1 1/2C in this mouthpiece brand, and if you like either of these as much or better, I'd ask whether they would mind swapping yours, as it is listed as being a C trumpet mouthpiece (I can't find a website for Arnold and Son's themselves) and they have recommended it for Bb trumpet without advising you accordingly.
Take Care
Lou
. _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
I have played the Bach versions of the 2 1/2 C and the 3C. To me, the 3C is a better overall trumpet mouthpiece in terms of tonality and projection. However, for the typical American "long" cornet (with a "straight" bell, not a "shepard's crook" bell, usually with a more trumpet-style bell throat and flare, and which was the main concert band instrument before WWII and before swing and jazz took over and the trumpet displaced the cornet in concert bands), I found the 2 1/2 C to be a better concert band (mixed winds ensemble) cornet mouthpiece for blending tone.
I agree with Louise - go try the 3C and see if you like it better than the 2 1/2 C. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet
I'm a big Sergei fan for some time now but this is spellbinding. Thanks for sharing. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
