• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Should high school kids play on C trumpets?


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Orchestral/Chamber Music/Solo
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sdgtpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Should high school kids play on C trumpets? Reply with quote

Should high school kids be allowed to play on C trumpets if they are playing orchestral literature?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
snichols
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 586
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see why not...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
oxleyk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4178

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Should high school kids play on C trumpets? Reply with quote

sdgtpt wrote:
Should high school kids be allowed to play on C trumpets if they are playing orchestral literature?


It depends on the level of the group and the music being played. Are the parts written for C or Bflat? Do all the players have C trumpets? Will the players need C trumpets after high school?

I'd say that learning to transpose the part is a better experience, but like I said, it depends.

Kent
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandyTX
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Should high school kids play on C trumpets? Reply with quote

sdgtpt wrote:
Should high school kids be allowed to play on C trumpets if they are playing orchestral literature?


"Be allowed" ? Yes.

"Be required" ? No.

It certainly won't do them any harm.
_________________
"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sdgtpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas Music Educators Association is considering prohibiting the use of C trumpets for their All-State auditions for high school kids. They feel that having a C trumpet gives a player an unfair advantage over one that doesn't have one....

There are people you can email if you have a strong opinion, these people are not trumpet players.

This last weekend kids were asked to play excerpts from Scheherazade and Bartok's Concerto for orchestra. They were not allowed to play either part on C trumpet, and were explicitly told that if you attempted to play on C Trumpet you would be disqualified. So the kids had to play the finale on Bb trumpet instead of C trumpet or even Eb trumpet.

I would hope some of you could weigh in on the subject to allow our students the option of being able to choose which horn they should play their own audition on.

You can email munozj@pearlandisd.org
Sealya@lisd.net
Fcoachman@tmea.org
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
oxleyk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4178

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a slightly different situation than was initially indicated.

Were they required to transpose it or just play what is written?

Kent
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it needs to be a case by case thing. No doubt there are some players and orchestras that can and do. But I suspect that the vast majority of young players aren't in a position to take on the C, or Eb or picc for that matter.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sdgtpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand how the C trumpet is any different than the trigger trombone, compensating euphonium, or any other instrument make/model that has mechanical advantages so it.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
cbclead
Veteran Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2009
Posts: 144
Location: Louisiana

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both Bb and C trumpets have their inherent advantages and disadvantages. Regardless of the instrument chosen, the students would still have to demonstrate technical and musical ability. I don't understand the decision to ban the C trumpet. The excerpts require transposition regardless of the instrument chosen.
_________________
Yamaha 8310Z
Stomvi Maurice Andre C
Kanstul 1025 Bb Flugel
Kanstul 920 Bb/A Piccolo Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dstdenis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand their point of view on this.

A contestant with a C trumpet might be able to play with a more characteristic sound that the judges would prefer on the audition excerpts. Some excerpts might be easier on C trumpet than Bb, giving the owner of a C trumpet an advantage. These factors could tip the balance in his/her favor, especially in a very close audition ranking.

Requiring each player to audition on a Bb trumpet takes away some of the potential equipment advantages and forces each contestant to win on skill, sound and musicianship. Also makes it easier for the judges to compare and rank the contestants.
_________________
Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sdgtpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so would it be fair for me to suggest that we ban trigger trombones? There is a significant mechanical advantage over a trombone without a trigger. What about double horn vs single horn? Do we prohibit the use of the double horn? Do we regulate trumpet mouthpieces and mutes as well? What about trumpet brands...?

TMEA's official position is to try and create a level playing field. That is an educational Philosophy that could go down a very slippery slope. They are preventing 15 of the top students (who will audition for colleges on the same excerpts on the C trumpet) because 10 kids or do feel they can't afford one?

Why limit the potential and possibilities of the top players in the state to protect the bottom players from getting their feelings hurt?

Auditioning is incredibly personal. A student should be allowed to choose their equipment that they feel like gives them the best possible opportunity to stand up there behind the screen and have a performance they can be proud of.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
ChopsGone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 1793

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears the TMEA leadership has gotten even more clueless than when I played there many years ago. One solution might be to drag out a Bb/C trumpet, play whatever makes it easier on the player, and see if the judges could tell the difference. While swapped slides, as on a Courtois 116L, might be detected, some other designs using one or two simple rotors to switch would probably put the burden of detecting the difference solidly on the adjudicators' ears.

To be honest, when I was in HS, both of those pieces were in our standard repertoire - tough, perhaps, but nothing unfamiliar enough that they would qualify for All-State audition material. I've played both of those many times on Bb. Here's a thought: first, find the educator who had a kid who didn't qualify last year and uses the lack of a C trumpet as the excuse - then have him give a good explanation why that makes sense. Second, find audition materials which have enough key changes to give approximately equal challenges to both Bb and C players.

No, I never made All State. But my daughter did, on another instrument, and my granddaughter did, on trumpet, in another state (first chair, no less) - so I'm sort of familiar with the level of difficulty of audition materials at that level. Back in my Texas days, we'd call the whole issue BS.
_________________
Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....


Last edited by ChopsGone on Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tpter1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1194

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a kid is serious enough to audition on pieces like Sheherazade or Bartok, he/she OUGHT to have a C trumpet. Seems quite unfair to the kid whose serious enough to have one. Especially since the Bartok is difficult enough on a C trumpet, let alone to transpose and play on a Bb (imagine that finale on Bb!!!Yikes!!!). In more advanced (read professional and college) groups, players make a conscious decision to use C trumpets on parts written for Bb.

And again- if the student is serious and playing at that level, he/she ought to have one anyway. It's like showing up to a golf game with only one club. It's a tool of the trade. Furthermore: I'd bet dollars to cents that they'll be needing/wanting one for when they get in.

Or are they not allowed to think for themselves enough to determine what works for them?
_________________
-Glenn Roberts
"Character is the backbone of human culture, and music is the flowering of human character". -Confucious
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdgtpt wrote:
Ok, so would it be fair for me to suggest that we ban trigger trombones? There is a significant mechanical advantage over a trombone without a trigger. What about double horn vs single horn? Do we prohibit the use of the double horn? Do we regulate trumpet mouthpieces and mutes as well? What about trumpet brands...?

TMEA's official position is to try and create a level playing field. That is an educational Philosophy that could go down a very slippery slope. They are preventing 15 of the top students (who will audition for colleges on the same excerpts on the C trumpet) because 10 kids or do feel they can't afford one?

Why limit the potential and possibilities of the top players in the state to protect the bottom players from getting their feelings hurt?

Auditioning is incredibly personal. A student should be allowed to choose their equipment that they feel like gives them the best possible opportunity to stand up there behind the screen and have a performance they can be proud of.

This argument makes little sense to me. The top students will be at no disadvantage their Bb horns.

As it stands, in my corner of the world the C is a relative rarity in high school. If a critical mass of high school players start playing the C then I'd expect that the auditioning policy will change.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
oxleyk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 4178

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About 16 years ago I took the exam for the Illinois real estate appraiser's license. When I arrived at the testing facility I was told I could not use my HP 12C calculator, a common tool for calculating mortgages and other financial numbers. The reason given was that it could be used to store information regarding the exam, which is completely false. No matter how I argued I was not allowed to use the calculator because, you know...RULES ARE RULES.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Danbassin
Veteran Member


Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Idyllwild, CA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdgtpt wrote:
Texas Music Educators Association is considering prohibiting the use of C trumpets for their All-State auditions for high school kids. They feel that having a C trumpet gives a player an unfair advantage over one that doesn't have one....

There are people you can email if you have a strong opinion, these people are not trumpet players.

This last weekend kids were asked to play excerpts from Scheherazade and Bartok's Concerto for orchestra. They were not allowed to play either part on C trumpet, and were explicitly told that if you attempted to play on C Trumpet you would be disqualified. So the kids had to play the finale on Bb trumpet instead of C trumpet or even Eb trumpet.

I would hope some of you could weigh in on the subject to allow our students the option of being able to choose which horn they should play their own audition on.

You can email munozj@pearlandisd.org
Sealya@lisd.net
Fcoachman@tmea.org


Thank you for sharing this!

When time allows, I will draft a letter and send it to the individuals listed here. Additionally, I'll post a copy here so that people who may share some of my views can take a look and consider how they would frame their own unsolicited messages to these educators.

I should say from the outset, that I am confident these individuals are committed educators and arrived at this decision - which I must also say from the outset I completely disagree with - with no ill intentions towards students or music. Let's be sure to present any arguments with a constructive discussion and outcome as our goal!

Best,

-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Picc;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sdgtpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be wonderful! Please keep us posted if you get a response. I'll do the same.




Danbassin wrote:
sdgtpt wrote:
Texas Music Educators Association is considering prohibiting the use of C trumpets for their All-State auditions for high school kids. They feel that having a C trumpet gives a player an unfair advantage over one that doesn't have one....

There are people you can email if you have a strong opinion, these people are not trumpet players.

This last weekend kids were asked to play excerpts from Scheherazade and Bartok's Concerto for orchestra. They were not allowed to play either part on C trumpet, and were explicitly told that if you attempted to play on C Trumpet you would be disqualified. So the kids had to play the finale on Bb trumpet instead of C trumpet or even Eb trumpet.

I would hope some of you could weigh in on the subject to allow our students the option of being able to choose which horn they should play their own audition on.

You can email munozj@pearlandisd.org
Sealya@lisd.net
Fcoachman@tmea.org


Thank you for sharing this!

When time allows, I will draft a letter and send it to the individuals listed here. Additionally, I'll post a copy here so that people who may share some of my views can take a look and consider how they would frame their own unsolicited messages to these educators.

I should say from the outset, that I am confident these individuals are committed educators and arrived at this decision - which I must also say from the outset I completely disagree with - with no ill intentions towards students or music. Let's be sure to present any arguments with a constructive discussion and outcome as our goal!

Best,

-DB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Lawler Bb
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jan 2002
Posts: 1139
Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sdgtpt wrote:

TMEA's official position is to try and create a level playing field. That is an educational Philosophy that could go down a very slippery slope. They are preventing 15 of the top students (who will audition for colleges on the same excerpts on the C trumpet) because 10 kids or do feel they can't afford one?

Why limit the potential and possibilities of the top players in the state to protect the bottom players from getting their feelings hurt?


This is unreal. What a bunch of feel-good bureaucratic stooges. I'll bet that most of the TMEA is made of educators that haven't taken a real audition before or been in a professional performing ensemble. You can't have everyone play 1st chair.

The music performance world is highly competitive, often cut-throat. To me, making it "fair" sets up students for future automatic failure. Talent, potential, excellence, etc. should be praised and encouraged, period.
_________________
Eric Sperry
www.ericsperry.com
www.facebook.com/EricSperryTrumpet/
www.instagram.com/milwaukeetrumpet/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
sdgtpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 770

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lawler Bb wrote:
sdgtpt wrote:

TMEA's official position is to try and create a level playing field. That is an educational Philosophy that could go down a very slippery slope. They are preventing 15 of the top students (who will audition for colleges on the same excerpts on the C trumpet) because 10 kids or do feel they can't afford one?

Why limit the potential and possibilities of the top players in the state to protect the bottom players from getting their feelings hurt?


This is unreal. What a bunch of feel-good bureaucratic stooges. I'll bet that most of the TMEA is made of educators that haven't taken a real audition before or been in a professional performing ensemble. You can't have everyone play 1st chair.

The music performance world is highly competitive, often cut-throat. To me, making it "fair" sets up students for future automatic failure. Talent, potential, excellence, etc. should be praised and encouraged, period.


Send an email.

Just take 15min and let them know. TMEA is about to go down a path that lowers the standards for everyone. No coming back from that....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
andybharms
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 May 2009
Posts: 625
Location: Boston, MA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The advantage of owning or having experience on a C trumpet in high school is huge. It is unfair, but that's just how the industry is.
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Orchestral/Chamber Music/Solo All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group