Should high school kids play on C trumpets?

[furcifer]

[sdgtpt]

Here is a specific example....

A student of mine is learning college audition material for Eastman, Juilliard, and Curtis.

A few of those excerpts were on the TMEA audition list. So, instead of playing all his TMEA excerpts on C trumpet (because that's the professional thing to do?) he had to take some extra time to back up and relearn those excerpts on Bb trumpet just for the TMEA audition. Now, looking back on it, having to play this stuff on Bb and C trumpet was a huge benefit to him in regards to his preparation and we'd probably do it again the exact same way just out of wanting to be prepared. I would have LOVED for him to have had the flexibility and honestly, the professional courtesy to have been allowed to have performed on his own instrument of choice. To have TMEA regulate what the kids can play out of "fairness" is silly, especially when there are instruments out there that offer a SIGNIFICANT advantage over others (Trigger Trombone is the biggest example).

This particular student, J.B., won the audition on Bb trumpet.

Last year we had the exact same scenario with a different student. College auditions coming up, playing on one kind of trumpet, ended up playing on another kind of trumpet, but it worked out for him out of trying to be the most prepared that he can be.

Last year, this student, B.B., won his audition as well.

So maybe the "C Trumpet" isn't the factor they need to be regulating? These students are winning auditions on Bb Trumpet but it's absurd that they are even having to jump through these ridiculous hoops and play the finale to the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra ".....just because".

Your emails to the above administrators would be appreciated. I've got another year to develop a consistent campaign to have this "rule" removed.

[Lawler Bb]

[Andy Del]

On the other hand, if a student is unable to win an audition on Bb only, simply because he can play some pieces on C trumpet only, indicates that kid may not b the best fit for the representative ensemble...

If you guys want to argue this, it can be reversed and make you look a lot sillier. The better course of action is to not bother with a silly organisation.

At our school, I insist the kids in orchestra play a C - we ave a pair for them to gain experience on them with. No brainer, was easy to fund with 2 quality second hand horns that play easily (oddly enough, they are not Bachs!) and sound great.

And what about the kid playing Honeggar Intrada in Bb? He nails it and can't be bothered getting a C. I can't argue the tis with him as he plays it so well.

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[Danbassin]

I do think that this discussion is devolving on several grounds.

Here's one crucial point - the repertoire featured Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. This work was written for the Boston Symphony Orchestra, whose 'French' pedigree of that period had them as one of the earlier c-trumpet-focused sections in music. What is the educational value in demanding players ignore the history of the repertoire they're encountering for the first time?

If the Rimsky-Korsakov were the only piece, there I see some leeway. Of course, we wouldn't ask them to play late 19th century Russian rotary Bbs...

I like the trigger trombone argument, but I think clarinets may be a better example:
-Trombones with an 'F' attachment allow players to play better in-tune, and also to access more of the chromatic range down to their pedal tones.
-Clarinets that students grow up playing are in Bb, but quite a lot (nearing 50%) of orchestral repertoire calls for switching between this instrument and one in A.
--There is a tone color consideration (like with the C trumpet) and also a consideration of the facility of the instrument to play in certain keys (not the best argument for Bb vs C trpt).
--Then there's a range issue, with the A clarinet giving the player access to a half-tone lower in range (a challenge for strictly C trumpet players from time to time: Carmen, Sibelius 5, etcetcetc.).

Fundamentally, a clarinetist who may be seriously considering the orchestral realm must become familiar with both instruments. For a trumpeter, would NOT be the case if they lived in the UK, for example, where Bb is still the instrument most commonly found in orchestras and bands alike...though C trumpets are popping up more and more, especially for principal players.

Requiring our players to be ignorant of the current state of the art is not educational. Requiring players to ignore the historical place of their repertoire is not educational.

But, the 'level playing field' argument also has real world professional applications - consider the near omnipresent requirement of the Haydn concerto on a (rotary) German Bb for most German and Austrian orchestral auditions. This is where I see the most relevant part of the issue. There's very little technical advantage to C over Bb trumpet, just like only playing Bb clarinet would pose some fingering challenges but would also force the player to hear and develop an incorrect sound for the music. If some players were permitted to audition with the Haydn (a piece I first performed in middle school, on a Blessing student model Bb) on a state-of-the-art Eb trumpet while their colleagues all had to fumble through challenging trills and exposed, delicate high notes, I think intervening as in this professional example would be the right educational move.

So, I really believe that trumpet choice and restrictions ought to be repertoire-specific. And, here they chose the wrong pieces to make this case. Consider a few years ago, when the Chicago Symphony released excellent recordings of Shostkovich symphonies with the section on Bbs - they made this equipment decision for the correct sound, not because it's easier.

It is a shame that sheer economics cost interested students some opportunities, but we're not talking about eliminating professional instruments so everyone auditions on a Bundy Bb without triggers on a generic 7C, so this decision is comically myopic, in my humble opinion. The economic playing field is best addressed through solid music education, so that all students get a robust foundation, and those who can afford lessons, professional instruments, and so-on, aren't automatically given the keys to the kingdom. Whether they can afford a C trumpet, and whether they can use a C trumpet are two very different questions - not allowing them to make such a personal selection is endemic of the problems we face as educators trying to enact policy.

What did I leave out?

Best!

-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD

[Craig Swartz]

To the simple original question: If the student is advanced enough to perform on a C trumpet and has one, let him/her/it play it. I have an outstanding HS senior student in my college studio that has been doing college auditions, partly on a C I've lent him for the orchestral excerpts portions. He plays it as well, tone and intentionally as he does his Bb. He's also using a flugel of mine for the jazz portions as well.

I know how it is when one is a school teacher, but we all need to step back, take a deep breath and take some time to decide what is best for the overall well-being of the students we teach, not just during the time we are graced by having them. HS music ass'ns be damned- there will be more life after high school than during it if one professes to study and somehow make a living in the music field. For more than a few gifted individuals, the public schools may be more of a speed bump or hindrance than a jumping off point.

Should one decide to enter into contests and such under the auspices of any governing organization, they need to obey those rules but don't let them run your life, nor the life of any aspiring music student you are working with. My student would be getting college offers from top flight schools based upon his playing in the auditions and academic scores whether or not he'd been a 4 year HS All State member. The fact that he is is some icing on the cake, but some of the absolute best musicians I play with never made All State groups in HS, I even doubt some of them auditioned.

Bottom line iMO, if you have a student with advanced ability who can show up with a C, pic, whatever, help him/her learn to play it and get out of the way. Good luck!

[JoseLindE4]

I can't see getting too fired up in either direction about this.

I immediately made the connection with this practice and the rotary Bb Haydn practice, so there's some professional precedent. I also think the rule seems a little unneeded and silly. It sounds more like an issue of too many people on both sides worried about winning rather than music making.

I grew up in Texas high school bands (didn't make All-State and have since had a productive performing and teaching career despite missing out on this apparently all important experience) and while the system achieves high standards it seems at times closer to Texas high school football rather than music making and educational/professional development.

Learning to play these excerpts well on Bb won't hamper a student's development, it will encourage it. Not picking up a C until college isn't a barrier to significant professional success (see Phil Smith). I also don't see a huge advantage for a high school kid (even a very good one) in using a C. If you can play, you can play. If you make a beautiful sound and make music, the horn should be of secondary importance. This of course assumes we're listening like musicians and not bean counters.

The excerpts do seem poorly chosen for Bb though. If you're going to force the Bb, it makes sense to use excerpts that might be played on Bb at a professional audition (even if they rarely are).

[cheiden]

I have no problems with adjudicators wanting to hear auditioners all on the same horn. And until the C is more widely used by high school players, that means the Bb. It's a bit of a strained argument to say that this gives an advantage to poorer players and disadvantages better players.

I do think it's irksome to make the audition pieces ones that are specifically written for the C or any other keyed trumpet.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[JoseLindE4]

I think this also highlights the smallness of something even as valuable as All-State. The hotshot all-state player goes to a fancy or not so fancy college and finds that being a hotshot high schooler doesn't mean so much anymore. That wonderful experience was ultimately small. The graduating college player can't get past the first round of a professional audition (even with a "perfect" audition) because of musical immaturity. Those 4+ years were pretty sheltered from the bigger musical community.

The Texas system produces some wonderful players, but it also encourages a lack of perspective and mindset that is the polar opposite of the professional world, even the bizarro world of professional auditions.

I've taken auditions and gigs with bizarrely specific horn requirements. Either I cut it or didn't. It wasn't the horn's fault. I can't think of one time since the all-state contest process where I felt the music world was cut-throat; it's always seemed collegial and helpful. Shedding that ego-driven mindset is a big step to musical maturity.

But it bears repeating, they should pick better excerpts for Bb.

[andybharms]

I think that's true of many/most states, but Texas is a little different. With such prolific lesson culture and Rice, U of Houston, SMU, UNT, etc. just around the corner, it is a MAD scramble to get into All State, and it actually means something. Up here in the NE there are so many different ways to participate in music and the pools are a lot more intimate that it wouldn't matter as much, but Texas has built their music extracurriculars around UIL and All State.

I'm from Missouri and our All State was indeed a bit petty... because some districts, like Kansas City and STL had very high, competitive standards (relatively speaking) but most districts didn't have access to lessons or often even decent horns.. their music programs were whatever they could get. The metro district groups could often sound better than the state groups.

Lessons for a year cost as much or more than a C trumpet. So do summer camps. And symphony subscriptions. Maybe we should ban those too.
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com

[Craig Swartz]

Good point about "banning lessons", Andy.

Guys- the real issue here (I'd bet) is the overpowering public school notion that everyone must be equal: How would it be fair for some kid with means to be able to use a C trumpet when most of the others will only have access to a Bb? And why should anyone who cannot/does not take lessons have to compete against someone that can/does? Seems unfair- we need to level the playing field.

Maybe everyone should audition on the same Olds Ambassador using the same mouthpiece, sanitized between auditions, of course. It's a good thing there are still some smart kids/parents who can see through all the BS and will be successful on their own volition without the hindrance and trappings of the well-intentioned school systems.

[andybharms]

I had a good chat with some folks 'on the in' with this issue. Hopefully it will make a difference.

I see the point... but there is NO mitigating the fact that having money is a significant advantage for a music student at all levels. The top orchestras are full of childhood privilege. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have top orchestras.

There was one two-month period I had saved up all year as a student and spent my money going to Germany to do a follow-up study with Reinhold Friedrich and some other top-notch folks. I remember meeting a secondary education student at one of the masterclasses-- her parents sent her to Karlsruhe from Vienna every Saturday. Did it make me angry that I had to work so hard all year for a month of lessons when this kid's parents did it for her every weekend for a year? Yes. But to this day I have never heard a better Charlier Solo de Concours from anybody, of any age.

If a kiddo felt strongly enough about wanting/needing a C trumpet, it would be worth it for them getting a slower laptop, forgoing that Netflix subscription, or mowing some lawns.
_________________
Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com

[nextfamousbud]

[JoseLindE4]

The difference between lessons and having general equipment requirements are pretty substantial. Whether you think this idea is great or terrible (or like me, neither), that's a terrible argument to make against it.

To take it to the other silly extreme, what's the difference between allowing C trumpets and hiring a local pro to take the audition for you? The answer of course is a whole lot, just like the difference between banning lessons and having equipment standards.

And yes, even the exalted status of Texas All-State, while a wonderful accomplishment (you have to be a fabulous young player to make it and they should be proud) and surely a great experience, is small and very much different than anything else experienced in a musician's life. It's not going on your C.V. or resume when you apply for the gig.

[ChrisMcGann]

Why not just have band excerpts on the list in place of orchestral excerpts? That seems to avoid the issue of playing excerpts on the "wrong" horn. There's certainly plenty of material to choose from.

[Crazy Finn]

[nextfamousbud]

[dem]

Many years ago I faced a similar situation auditioning for an high school All-State band. I was lucky enough to have already gotten a scholarship to study with a great trumpet teacher from a big 5 orchestra and play in several local orchestras. I spend the summer as a dishwasher/busboy and finally saved enough money to get a Bach C trumpet. My teacher worked hard to get me up to speed on the audition solo and I was ready to really nail it. I had also been practicing my transposition so I wasn't afraid to sight read a step down. My Bb wasn't a very good instrument so I didn't use it much and didn't take it to the All-State audition.

When I got to the audition and was warming up, my band director come running over and told me that the committee said I wasn't allowed to use a C trumpet. Whether that was always a rule and my band director forgot to let me know or whether they made it up on the spot I never found out. They did let me go to the local band room and get a beat up old Bundy and borrow it for the audition. I had about an hour to learn the new fingerings and get used to the blow of that thing.

I managed to get through it and was offered like 7th chair or something. My disappointment at how this whole process worked out was pretty painful. (My father was in jail at the time and the trumpet was about the only thing I had going for me.)

So I hope that whatever decisions are made in Texas or where ever about C trumpets will be communicated clearly to the kids, that they will be encouraged and treated with respect, and that the focus will be on the joy of making music.

[nzhangtrpt]

Hey guys!

I don't see why a school kid should not play on a C trumpet. However, there are several factors to consider:

1. Even though professional orchestra players use C, school music might be in the key of Bb. The usage of C thus become optional.

2. School kids do want to have a good fundation on playing their Bb trumpets.

3. If one player in the section is using a C, the rest of the section may want to match him. Trying to have an entire section of good players with C horns might be difficult.

Nick

[1jazzyalex]