Blueprinting

cool arrow · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:29 pm Post subject: Blueprinting

I've been reading a lot about Blueprinting. I'm thinking about sending my horn off to get looked at. What experiences have you had with this procedure? What are the cost ranges and results?

Thank you,

CA
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Cool Arrow

AJCarter · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject:

Jim Becker will let you know final cost based upon what needs to be done. My cost after shipping was a little over $500, but it took my "good Bach" to a great one that plays with really good tuning for a 239/25H horn, and even sound throughout the ranges and dynamics.

Totally worth it, would 100% recommend without hesitation.
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(List horns here)

trumpet.sanity · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763

cool arrow · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:33 pm Post subject:

trumpet.sanity, if your reply is meant to be a comical statement concerning the requirements needed to place an item for sale I can surely go along with it. It is a bit funny. However, if you are implying that this is all done to move a horn you are wrong. And even if it was, take your comments to the moderators not the members that are following the rules.

I do not know why it says "New Member" under my screen name and "Veteran Member" under yours. I have been a member here since 2006 which is a bit longer than 4 months. I am starting to post things again since I am getting back into more consistent playing and, well, it has been a long time. For the record, cool arrow will never sell an item on The Trumpet Herald. I will use safer and easier methods should I decide to sell.

I don't know you but I'm sure you have been very helpful to others on this forum. I apologize in advance if your statement was meant to be light hearted in which case this reply seems to be over kill. But, maybe someone else will read this exchange and learn something. Who knows? Your reply seemed to delegitimize my efforts to gain knowledge that is the cornerstone of these types of forums.

Sincerely,

CA
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Cool Arrow

trumpet_cop · Veteran Member Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 242

falado · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject:

Jim at Osmun has blueprinted 2 of my Bach 37s and has done outstanding work on some of my other horns. The last horn he did for me was a wreck and he transformed it to an excellent player. For me that's saying a lot as I am not partial to Bach 37s. I used the horn in a concert band rehearsal tonight and it played great on music from Holtz's 2nd Suite to a Duke Ellington medley. Do it, you'll be glad when you get it back.

Dave
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FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:00 pm Post subject:

I had a Benge 5X when I met Flip Oakes. He performed his Total Enhancement on it. This included machining the nib on the top of the 2nd valve top cap to make clearance for his pad thickness. It seems the valve stem was inordinately short

He also checked my Kanstul 1025 and pronounced the valves within tolerances.

A couple of years ago, I purchased a copper bell Wild Thing flugelhorn. I special ordered it with no finish, as I intended to use it as a demonstrator for nPart's Hands OFF! raw brass protective nano-coating. When the horn came to me, it had not been set up by Flip. I played it and I was pretty disappointed.

I already had a WT flugelhorn in silver. It was a wonderful horn. The best flugelhorn I'd ever played. This new horn was nowhere near the same. It didn't want to land on notes like the silver horn. The tone was weak and transparent. I began to think that I wasn't going to play this new "investment" much. I called Flip to discuss it. He suggested I return it to him so he could set it up.

When I got it back, it was completely transformed. It landed each note easily. It had a wonderful tone which was still light, but not flakey in any way. As I played it more, I found it to be very even in response and tone all the way through its scale. Intonation was excellent, just like my silver horn.

What had been a disappointment became the finest brass instrument I've ever owned.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

trumpet.sanity · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

markp · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject:

I've read about this with interest.

When you send in a horn for this process, the notion I've gotten is that they pull up a special "blueprint" for your particular horn and make sure that your horn conforms perfectly with it.

I never knew that such blueprints were made and that they were available. Are they like the blueprint that would be made before a building is constructed?

Does this mean that Osmun has a document for ever horn ever made? They have the original plans for every Olds Super, Getzen Severinsen, Benge 3X, Dominick-made Calicchio 1s2, etc.?

Where did they get these documents? They have the measurements down to the 1/100th of an inch for each component for every horn ever made?

Or, am I taking this description too literally?

TKSop · Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:48 pm Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:05 am Post subject:

TKSop is right. Blueprinting is the process of bringing the actual horn toward is original specifications. Variations in part dimensions, assembly techniques, etc., produce horns that have "faults" that are not part of the original design.

Flashing around the water key hole, tubes that were shrunk down at the end so that they would fit a ferrule, excess solder and even out-of-roundness are all things which regularly occur during assembly. A good blueprinting addresses these issues and more. I've watched Flip Oakes unsolder and reposition a spring barrel from a valve piston to correct radial alignment in one of his Wild Thing horns.

He also told me that the first Wild Thing trumpet I had needed a whole lot of work to get right, but at the end it became "one of two exceptional horns to come through" his shop. The other belongs to Tom Turner, a long-time TH member.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

LittleRusty · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:04 am Post subject:

Speaking of blueprints, I was shown the blueprint for the Bach C 229 trumpet by Ted Waggoner. It was pretty cool seeing something done by Vincent himself.

JazzFluegel · Regular Member Joined: 16 Dec 2013 Posts: 63

VetPsychWars · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:20 am Post subject:

I tend to agree with you. If I like a horn that much, it goes to Charlie Melk, gets disassembled, everything made straight, and reassembled no-stress as part of a restoration.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

James Becker · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:09 am Post subject:

As a practitioner that's been repairing brass instruments for 40+ years, (the past 27 years at Osmun) I've seen, measured and documented quite a bit of data on trumpets. No, we don't have factory blueprints, but are familiar with the parameters of the major maker's trumpets, cornets and flugelhorns. The elimination of disruptions in the bore, valve alignment, addressing concentrically issues, out of round tubing, making sure mouthpipe venturi and receiver gap are within set parameters can be the difference between a dog an exceptional instrument. We've even blueprinted "hand picked" trumpets that were very good to begin with and elevated them to the next level.

Read more abour our blueprinting service here http://www.osmun.com/blueprint

As for cost, it can vary from instrument to instrument. For example the base price to blueprint the typical Bach trumpet is $339.00, and reflects a discounted package price of individual services. The cost of AJCarter's $500.00+ repair bill reflects additional parts and labor on top of our blueprinting service. It is not uncommon for replacement leadpipes and tuning slides to run hundreds of dollars for parts and installation. All trumpets receive a free diagnostic test for valve seal and can be rebuilt when need be.

For additional savings we offer a brand new Bach C180L22925H trumpet that's already been blueprinted at a discount. http://www.osmun.com/instruments/bach-c-trumpet-blueprinted.html

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

Rod Haney · Heavyweight Member Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937

AJCarter · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:37 pm Post subject:

This tangential discussion reminds me of a homily:

Nikola Tesla visited Henry Ford at his factory, which was having some kind of difficulty. Ford asked Tesla if he could help identify the problem area. Tesla walked up to a wall of boilerplate and made a small X in chalk on one of the plates. Ford was thrilled, and told him to send an invoice.

The bill arrived, for $10,000. Ford asked for a breakdown. Tesla sent another invoice, indicating a $1 charge for marking the wall with an X, and $9,999 for knowing where to put it.