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Grits Burgh
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 Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:00 am Post subject: Mouthpiece Blanks |
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| Quote: | In another thread, Turkle posted:
I love the Curry 3C. FWIW, I greatly prefer it in a Bach-style blank rather than the standard Curry blank. YMMV. |
Interesting topic.
I know nothing about this. I thought that a piece of brass is a piece of brass.
Can someone elaborate on the difference in blanks? Is the difference in the alloy of the metal? I presume that the dimensions of the finished mouthpiece would be identical, is that true?
Thanks,
Grits
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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The standard Curry blank is a few grams heavier than the Bach blank. I don't recall the exact difference but it does affect the response and tone. Some like the heavier piece and some the lighter one.
Kent |
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mm55
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Blanks |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | | I presume that the dimensions of the finished mouthpiece would be identical, is that true? |
No, it means that the outside dimensions and shape are different. The external shape of Curry's "Bach blank" is based on Bach mouthpieces, with a narrower profile around the throat, and more turned ridges, as opposed to his regular blank which is much beefier there, and has much less detail.
I am skeptical whether I can tell the difference; others may be more sensitive to such differences. As for the visual aesthetics, I think the Bach blank looks nicer in a Bach or Selmer trumpet,
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trumpet.sanity
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
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I think everybody uses stock brass with the exceptions obviously, if they say it's sterling silver, stainless steel, or otherwise.
Stomvi "flex" uses some proprietary brass mixture alloy that they don't really advertise what's in it. Jet-tone at one point, offered mouthpieces made of aluminum.
But I think when people are talking about blanks they like or dislike, weight is the important factor. From skeletonized light weight blanks, standard Bach-ish blanks, to heavy weight mega-tone style blanks and everything in between.
I guess the theory is lighter weight blanks have a quicker response, and articulation, whereas heavy blanks have more core and projection power. And of course there are arguments for the pros and cons of each.
I guess all those factors from materials to weight change the playing characteristics of a mouthpiece to some degree |
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tptguy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| I think, perhaps, Grit is understanding the term blank to mean the chunk of raw brass before before the lathe first hits it. And others are using the term to mean the outside finished shape. |
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Turkle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: |
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In my experience with playing a Curry 3C. in both blanks, the extra mass around the throat area really makes a difference. To me, heavy mouthpieces feel like I'm blowing into a brick wall and I really don't like it. It feels less flexible, and more effort to play for me.
The benefit to the heavier blank is I think more stability of tone and tighter slotting, for those that like that sort of thing.
But I prefer Bach blanks or even lighter, which light up (sizzle) quicker, are more flexible, and provide better player feedback, and I think more pop in the articulation maybe.
I don't find the effect subtle at all - it's immediately noticeable to me when A/B testing the mouthpieces.
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Grits Burgh
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | tptguy posted:
I think, perhaps, Grit is understanding the term blank to mean the chunk of raw brass before before the lathe first hits it. And others are using the term to mean the outside finished shape. |
Exactly.
I see discussions concerning blanks for mouthpieces. I am trying to understand what the issues are. Obviously, at least one person (that would be me) doesn't know what the definition of "blank" is.
Thanks to all for enlightening me.
Grits
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zaferis
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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yes, "blank" is refering to the outside shape of the mouthpiece. It's "profile" if you will
Thus the brass is of varying thickness. Which has a noticable affect upon the play of the mouthpiece. Much of the tone that we associate with a Bach mouthpiece is partly due to the outside shape - that classic profile. You probably notice that many other makers profile is very similar to Bach's.
Many posts refer to Curry's pieces.. if you go to his site:
http://www.currympc.com/index.php?id=50
you can see various Curry blanks-each change play properties of like series insides. A 3C BlackJack sounds and plays differently than a 3C standard and a 3C Bach-style. The difference can range from subtle to drastic.
Taditionally made of brass and silver/gold plated, but there are some available made with other materials: wood, plastic, steel, etc. Each having different affects on tone and feel.
I see I'm a little tardy in posting on this thread, but I hope it helps.
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Grits Burgh
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Zaferis posted:
I see I'm a little tardy in posting on this thread, but I hope it helps. |
Better late than never. Actually, it did help.
Thanks,
Grits
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Craig Swartz
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Blanks |
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| mm55 wrote: | | Grits Burgh wrote: | | I presume that the dimensions of the finished mouthpiece would be identical, is that true? |
No, it means that the outside dimensions and shape are different. The external shape of Curry's "Bach blank" is based on Bach mouthpieces, with a narrower profile around the throat, and more turned ridges, as opposed to his regular blank which is much beefier there, and has much less detail.
I am skeptical whether I can tell the difference; others may be more sensitive to such differences. As for the visual aesthetics, I think the Bach blank looks nicer in a Bach or Selmer trumpet, |
If outside dimensions don't matter there are a lot of players being taken with the heavy mass Mega Tone-type pieces...  |
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Louise Finch
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Blanks |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | | Quote: | In another thread, Turkle posted:
I love the Curry 3C. FWIW, I greatly prefer it in a Bach-style blank rather than the standard Curry blank. YMMV. |
Interesting topic.
I know nothing about this. I thought that a piece of brass is a piece of brass.
Can someone elaborate on the difference in blanks? Is the difference in the alloy of the metal? I presume that the dimensions of the finished mouthpiece would be identical, is that true?
Thanks,
Grits |
Hi Grits
I can't comment about the Curry mouthpieces in particular, as I haven't tried these, but I can comment on the topic, as I have three otherwise identical Kanstul 3C modular tops in three different blank styles, one is the Kanstul standard modular top blank, which is pretty similar to a Bach trumpet mouthpiece blank, one is a copy of the cup end of a Bach cornet mouthpiece blank (less mass at the bottom of the cup), and the other is a copy of the cup end of the Kanstul WK Series One Piece Cornet Mouthpiece blank (i.e. along the lines of a Denis Wick cornet mouthpiece). I'm not very good at analyzing distribution of mass with mouthpiece blank, but I presume that the Denis Wick style blank has even less mass at the bottom of the cup than a Bach cornet mouthpiece blank.
There is a surprising difference in playability between these three tops, which I will differentiate as having a Bach trumpet blank style, Bach cornet blank style and Denis Wick blank style, even though they are all made by Jim New whilst he was at Kanstul.
The Bach trumpet blank style has a darker sound and is slightly slower to respond than the Bach cornet blank style, which I attribute to the greater mass at the bottom of the cup of the Bach trumpet style. I like this darker sound on my Yamaha Xeno cornet. At first I found clean fast articulations harder to execute owing to it being slower to respond, but I have worked on this aspect of my playing to compensate for this. The Bach cornet blank style top has a brighter sound and articulations are easier to execute. I like this top on my Bach 184ML cornet. The Denis Wick cornet blank style top is an odd one. On the Sovereign cornet I used to own, it seemed to contribute to giving the Sovereign more of a brass band cornet tone, even though it is internally a Bach 3C, which makes me wonder whether the blank shape contributes to the sound of a Denis Wick cornet mouthpiece. On my Yamaha Xeno cornet, the Denis Wick blank style top just seems to give a thinner sound, and I don't like it much.
I've always wondered why Bach cornet mouthpieces are different at the cup end to Bach trumpet mouthpieces. I used to think that the more streamlined cup shape was just to balance the shorter shank, but after trying both blank shapes on cornet, I'm wondering whether the reduction in mass at the bottom of the cup of the Bach cornet mouthpieces is deliberate.
I don't know, only that blank shape does appear to make a significant difference.
I once tried a Bach megatone 3C, and absolutely hated the lack of feedback owing to the extra mass.
All the best
Lou
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zaferis
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: |
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just a note on the Bach Megatone - not only is the blank heavier, but I believe the throat is also more open.. so, in this instance you are comparing more than one variation... i.e. a Bach 3C vs. a Bach 3C Megatone.
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Louise Finch
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | | just a note on the Bach Megatone - not only is the blank heavier, but I believe the throat is also more open.. so, in this instance you are comparing more than one variation... i.e. a Bach 3C vs. a Bach 3C Megatone. |
Hi zaferis
The Bach megatone has a 26 rather than a 27 throat. My understanding is that this is to compensate for the greater feeling of resistance owing to the greater mass.
Take Care
Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
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Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
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Richard III
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | skeletonized light weight blanks |
Exactly what I'm looking for. I've tried searching and what I find is lead mouthpieces that are shallow and tight. I'm looking for a deep and open mouthpiece with a very light weight blank.
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zaferis
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | skeletonized light weight blanks |
Exactly what I'm looking for. I've tried searching and what I find is lead mouthpieces that are shallow and tight. I'm looking for a deep and open mouthpiece with a very light weight blank. |
For starters: Curry UltraLite comes to mind, Brasswind Research (Bob Love)'s are failry light then maybe a Marcinkiewicz Symphonic?
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Richard III
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| zaferis wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | skeletonized light weight blanks |
Exactly what I'm looking for. I've tried searching and what I find is lead mouthpieces that are shallow and tight. I'm looking for a deep and open mouthpiece with a very light weight blank. |
For starters: Curry UltraLite comes to mind, Brasswind Research (Bob Love)'s are failry light then maybe a Marcinkiewicz Symphonic? |
Thanks. Looking at all three, none of them really has the light weight blank I'm looking for. I've asked about this on another forum and there appears to be little out there that is what I'm looking for. Imagine a trumpet mouthpiece that looks like a Wick Heritage cornet mouthpiece or a Wick Paxman french horn mouthpiece.
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Louise Finch
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | zaferis wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | Quote: | | skeletonized light weight blanks |
Exactly what I'm looking for. I've tried searching and what I find is lead mouthpieces that are shallow and tight. I'm looking for a deep and open mouthpiece with a very light weight blank. |
For starters: Curry UltraLite comes to mind, Brasswind Research (Bob Love)'s are failry light then maybe a Marcinkiewicz Symphonic? |
Thanks. Looking at all three, none of them really has the light weight blank I'm looking for. I've asked about this on another forum and there appears to be little out there that is what I'm looking for. Imagine a trumpet mouthpiece that looks like a Wick Heritage cornet mouthpiece or a Wick Paxman french horn mouthpiece. |
Hi Richard
I suggest contacting Jim New, and asking whether he has an appropriate blank on file, which he can use as the basis of a custom mouthpiece for you.
All the best
Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Grits Burgh
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Turkle posted:
I love the Curry 3C. FWIW, I greatly prefer it in a Bach-style blank rather than the standard Curry blank. YMMV. |
I read this and thought, "Really? Can a blank actually make any noticeable difference?" I was skeptical.
I have several Curry mouthpieces. After reading this post, I noticed that my Curry 1.5BC has a Bach blank. So, I took several Curry mouthpieces for a spin and to my utter amazement, I too prefer the Bach blanks (Turkle already explained the difference the Bach blank makes, so I won't rehash that).
I'll never look at my Curry 3C. with the standard blank the same way.
Wouldn't you know it. The Bach blank option takes the Curry mouthpieces out of the (relatively) low price range. But, now that I know the difference, there is no going back.
So, now I have to try the blackjack blank, and the skeleton blank...
Is there no end to the madness? I'll soon have to throw away my socks to make room in the drawer for more mouthpieces.
Thanks, Turkle - uh, I guess. 
Regards,
Grits
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Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
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Brad361
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I recently got the Schilke 14a4z, which is a "skeletonized" blank. I don't know if it's totally due to the lighter weight, or maybe the tighter throat, or both but in my opinion it's definitely "zippier" than the standard weight.
Brad
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zaferis
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Grits Burgh wrote: | | Quote: | Turkle posted:
I love the Curry 3C. FWIW, I greatly prefer it in a Bach-style blank rather than the standard Curry blank. YMMV. |
I read this and thought, "Really? Can a blank actually make any noticeable difference?" I was skeptical.
I have several Curry mouthpieces. After reading this post, I noticed that my Curry 1.5BC has a Bach blank. So, I took several Curry mouthpieces for a spin and to my utter amazement, I too prefer the Bach blanks (Turkle already explained the difference the Bach blank makes, so I won't rehash that).
I'll never look at my Curry 3C. with the standard blank the same way.
Wouldn't you know it. The Bach blank option takes the Curry mouthpieces out of the (relatively) low price range. But, now that I know the difference, there is no going back.
So, now I have to try the blackjack blank, and the skeleton blank...
Is there no end to the madness? I'll soon have to throw away my socks to make room in the drawer for more mouthpieces.
Thanks, Turkle - uh, I guess.
Regards,
Grits |
I just discovered that MouthpieceExpress will cut your mouthpiece (cup & backbore ala Warburton's setup) ... on a whim I ordered a new version of my setup Curry 3C.. as above an improvement from the standard Curry blank..so now I can swap out backbores and cups... yea. $$,$$$ ;(
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