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The elusive Benge 1X


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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
I'm still intrigued by Benge weights. I wonder if the later LAs were just whacked more when making the bells, or if they used a thinner gauge brass than Burbanks and earlier LA horns.
First, thanks for the kind words...absolutely my pleasure!
I really dig the history and all things Benge, also had to satisfy my curiosity.

Pics coming later today, can't access the host site from work...

As far as weights, I saw your other thread but had to get a new digital scale-
just got it few days ago, check this out:

1941/2 Chicago 32.4 oz
1969 Burbank 34.4
1970/1 LA 5x 35.7
1975 LA 3x+ 33.7
1979 2x+ 31.9

Interesting, huh? Thoughts...

Danbassin wrote:
do you feel much of a difference in 'openness' from your MLP Benges to the ML horn (5x), or do the the bell/etc. features almost cancel out the differences with all things not being equal?
Yes, there is a difference...however, each horn has it's own balance
and I use them in different situations.
I have found that slight mouthpiece adjustments allow me to optimize
every one to cut down the variable of the different 'feel'.

Hope this helps.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are reminding me of some snippets of conversations...

My experience is with various LA Benges, a few (probably all post-Elden) Burbank horns and one Chicago horn. I have held and briefly played 3 separate CG Benge horns and, recently, one Burbank brand 6X-CG.

Except for the Burbank CG and one Kanstul-restored CG Benge, all of the other horns were of the same approximate weight, as far as my hands could tell. That said, I can think of two probably major contributors to the varying weight of individual horns.

First is the gage of brass. Zig Kanstul once told me that Benge always used .020" brass sheet as standard for all their bells, except the later CG bells, which were .016". Still, on one roll of brass, the actual thickness varies as much as 10% in either direction. So, some bells might start with as thin as .018" stock or as much as .021", he said.

The other parts that may or may not be a major factor are the valve casings. I was discussing valve rebuilds with Byron Autrey one day. He told me that, when a customer brings him an old Benge to rebuild, he never hones the barrels, because some of them are so thin that the threads for the bottom caps might actually separate from the balusters. He swages the barrels, instead.

Perhaps, back in the pre-computer machining day, the thickness of the barrel casings varied? If so, it's possible that thicker bell sheet stock and thicker valve casings would make a heavier horn and so on. No change in specification, just built up tolerances.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis,

Thanks for sharing those weights.

"1941/2 Chicago 32.4 oz
1969 Burbank 34.4
1970/1 LA 5x 35.7
1975 LA 3x+ 33.7
1979 2x+ 31.9

Interesting, huh? Thoughts... "

That kinda goes along with my theory, except the Chicago 🤔 I guess one ounce here or there is not a big deal, but in my hands I sure feel the difference, and response is awesome on all Benges, but some of those lighter, later Benges are shockingly light and fast.

Shofarguy made a good point about valve blocks I hadn't considered as well.

I've also seen bell rims from 4-1/2 to 4-7/8 to closer to 5 inches on Benges. I guess a little weight from those bells might make a difference as well.

Back to the 1X I'm very curious about the bell flair shape. Hope to see some pics when you get a chance. I really appreciate you sharing your findings and taking the time. You have one of the few first hand experiences I've ever read about on playing and having a 1X in your hands. Too cool!!

Thanks again Dennis!
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't think it would last long. I'm glad you got to try it Dennis, it seems Dillons has sold it already
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
Didn't think it would last long. I'm glad you got to try it Dennis, it seems Dillons has sold it already
Wow! That was quick, haha!

Anyway, here are the pics...

1x, 2x+, 3x+, 5x


Side view, bells


Bell flare comparison, 2x+


Engraving


3x+ bell comparison
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, you are for sure a big a Benge nut as anybody I know!! Your horns look awesome, great collection man.

Thanks for the pics, now I am more confused than ever. The brass bell doesn't help me eyeballing differences, but what do you think? The 1X bell looks closest to the 3X ? That's what I see.

I knew that horn would sell fast, wish I could of played on it to satisfy my neurotic curiousness. But I probably wouldn't have bought one that had any modifications like what was done to the bell. But the serial number is right where I like those LA horns.

Your 2X+ looks tastee btw!! I bet it's a scream machine!
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:
Dude, you are for sure a big a Benge nut as anybody I know!! Your horns look awesome, great collection man.
Thanks man! I feel so fortunate to be able to own such fine instruments.

trumpet.sanity wrote:
Thanks for the pics, now I am more confused than ever. The brass bell doesn't help me eyeballing differences, but what do you think? The 1X bell looks closest to the 3X ? That's what I see.

Agreed, the raw bell doesn't photo well and in real life so much easier to see.
Perry and I agreed the 1x & 3x bells looked almost identical. Our guess is that
the 1x is basically a medium bore 3x.

trumpet.sanity wrote:
I knew that horn would sell fast, wish I could of played on it to satisfy my neurotic curiousness. But I probably wouldn't have bought one that had any modifications like what was done to the bell. But the serial number is right where I like those LA horns.
If that bell was silver, I would be the current owner!

trumpet.sanity wrote:
Your 2X+ looks tastee btw!! I bet it's a scream machine!
Dude, love all my Benges but seriously can't get enough of this one!
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm glad it sold, this way I don't have to talk myself into trying to get my hands on it. But I think, like you it probably wouldn't suit my needs.

I already feel like the ML Benges play like a medium bore. The resistance in my 2X reminds me of a Schilke B6. Any tighter I think would be overkill for me.

Dave Trigg is a beast of a player, and I'm sure he knew what he was doing by trying to brighten that horn. But man, what a drag. I kinda finicky with details and finish, and aftermarket work. Part of me would want to replate it, but I'd always wonder how it played originally. Like I said, I'm glad it sold

This is the second 1X I've ever seen posted anywhere. Baltimore Brass had a silver one a couple years ago. I'm sure one will come up again, but I'm glad you got to try this one, and report back with the awesome details and pics. Thanks again!
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played the 1X starting at age 13 (1978) or so and kept on through college and beyond. It's a great jazzy horn that can also sound pretty legit with a classical mouthpiece. Nice to see a post about it.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
You guys are reminding me of some snippets of conversations...

My experience is with various LA Benges, a few (probably all post-Elden) Burbank horns and one Chicago horn. I have held and briefly played 3 separate CG Benge horns and, recently, one Burbank brand 6X-CG.

Except for the Burbank CG and one Kanstul-restored CG Benge, all of the other horns were of the same approximate weight, as far as my hands could tell. That said, I can think of two probably major contributors to the varying weight of individual horns.

First is the gage of brass. Zig Kanstul once told me that Benge always used .020" brass sheet as standard for all their bells, except the later CG bells, which were .016". Still, on one roll of brass, the actual thickness varies as much as 10% in either direction. So, some bells might start with as thin as .018" stock or as much as .021", he said.

The other parts that may or may not be a major factor are the valve casings. I was discussing valve rebuilds with Byron Autrey one day. He told me that, when a customer brings him an old Benge to rebuild, he never hones the barrels, because some of them are so thin that the threads for the bottom caps might actually separate from the balusters. He swages the barrels, instead.

Perhaps, back in the pre-computer machining day, the thickness of the barrel casings varied? If so, it's possible that thicker bell sheet stock and thicker valve casings would make a heavier horn and so on. No change in specification, just built up tolerances.


.020" sheet brass is standard for both Benge and Calicchio. Bach is about .025"

Interesting table on the weights of Benge - It's likely the oldest trumpet has been overhauled at least once or twice, hence the lighter weight.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chapahi wrote:
I played the 1X starting at age 13 (1978) or so and kept on through college and beyond. It's a great jazzy horn that can also sound pretty legit with a classical mouthpiece. Nice to see a post about it.


You're one of the few guys I've seen post about a 1X. Do you still have it?
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chapahi wrote:
I played the 1X starting at age 13 (1978) or so and kept on through college and beyond. It's a great jazzy horn that can also sound pretty legit with a classical mouthpiece. Nice to see a post about it.


Thanks for sharing!

If you don't mind acting as something of a 'case study' for this thread - since the 1x was and has been your main instrument, did you find that some of the stereotypes of 'bright' sounding, medium-bore instruments posed challenges for your ability to 'blend' with other trumpeters? I really appreciate that you specified how the instrument still served you well when played with a 'classical' mouthpiece, and I also notice that you're writing from Germany, so are rotary trumpets also part of your trumpet background?

Finally, have you played other famous medium bore piston instruments, like the Schilke B4,6,7 horns, or "#2 bore" Martins, etc.? If so, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on comparing sound, response, and efficiency.

Vielen dank!!

-DB
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet.sanity wrote:


You're one of the few guys I've seen post about a 1X. Do you still have it?


Yes. At the moment it's not in my possession but on the other side of the pond. The valves could use a rebuild or at least I need to use thick valve oil. It's had a lead-pipe replacement by Josh Landress as the old one cracked. We went a little experimental and tried a more open, committee like lead-pipe. Oops...I heard later they say don't do that with Benges, but it still sounds basically the same or maybe a little darker and broader. Still good focus.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chapahi wrote:
trumpet.sanity wrote:


You're one of the few guys I've seen post about a 1X. Do you still have it?


Yes. At the moment it's not in my possession but on the other side of the pond. The valves could use a rebuild or at least I need to use thick valve oil. It's had a lead-pipe replacement by Josh Landress as the old one cracked. We went a little experimental and tried a more open, committee like lead-pipe. Oops...I heard later they say don't do that with Benges, but it still sounds basically the same or maybe a little darker and broader. Still good focus.


Too bad about that leadpipe, but Landress is a modern day guru

Aaaaaaannnndddd you can swap that Martin pipe for a Benge whenever you feel so inclined. There are lots of originals, and I'm sure you know Kanstul can draw one for you.

Some day I'll get a chance to try one. You've got a rare bird for sure. Hang on to it!
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
.020" sheet brass is standard for both Benge and Calicchio. Bach is about .025"

Interesting table on the weights of Benge - It's likely the oldest trumpet has been overhauled at least once or twice, hence the lighter weight.


Interesting, just for giggles- makes me think more about Brian's point about
the valve casings...

1990 Calicchio 36.2
1960 Bach 25 36.9
1970 Bach 37 38.5
1980 Bach 72 41.0
2004 Schilke B1 35.2

And NOTHING has been done to the Chicago besides replacing the finger buttons.
Remember, these were mostly custom made for a specific person, so very
possible it was requested this way.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
.020" sheet brass is standard for both Benge and Calicchio. Bach is about .025"

Interesting table on the weights of Benge - It's likely the oldest trumpet has been overhauled at least once or twice, hence the lighter weight.


Interesting, just for giggles- makes me think more about Brian's point about
the valve casings...

1990 Calicchio 36.2
1960 Bach 25 36.9
1970 Bach 37 38.5
1980 Bach 72 41.0
2004 Schilke B1 35.2

And NOTHING has been done to the Chicago besides replacing the finger buttons.
Remember, these were mostly custom made for a specific person, so very
possible it was requested this way.


Just for clarification, it's Bach's tubing, not neccessarily the bell, that is about .025" They have all sorts of combination of thinner tubing as well that's combined with standard bells.
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:


Thanks for sharing!

If you don't mind acting as something of a 'case study' for this thread - since the 1x was and has been your main instrument, did you find that some of the stereotypes of 'bright' sounding, medium-bore instruments posed challenges for your ability to 'blend' with other trumpeters? I really appreciate that you specified how the instrument still served you well when played with a 'classical' mouthpiece, and I also notice that you're writing from Germany, so are rotary trumpets also part of your trumpet background?

Finally, have you played other famous medium bore piston instruments, like the Schilke B4,6,7 horns, or "#2 bore" Martins, etc.? If so, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on comparing sound, response, and efficiency.

Vielen dank!!

-DB


The 1X may be generally on the bright side but I didn't have problems blending in with sections. The 1X is easy to handle and was easy to morph the sound into what I was looking for. Dark was all the rage then as Wynton Marsalis was rising to prominence around that time and Miles Davis was my idol. Looking back, some of the horns I've had success with were the Conns 12B and 38B (both .438 bore) and now the SIMA which is .453 like the 1X so maybe the "medium bore" thing stayed with me. I loaned the 1X to a friend and thought he sounded better on it than on his Shilke B6. I don't have any rotary valve experience yet as I am a newbie here in Germany but I'd like to give them a try....
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has been the season of rare Benge trumpets. I've never seen so many Burbank Benges on eBay, at Dillons, J Landress. The elusive 1X that just appeared last week.

Aaaaaand, I got an email from a friend of a TH'er down in TX that has a clean LA Benge 1X he is looking to sell. He says it's mid 70s serial number is 15XXX

One I get the pics and price, and I manage to talk myself out of buying it, I'll post some pics, and share the guys info through pm to whoever is interested.

Crazy serge of interesting Benges recently.
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trumpet.sanity
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also a cool Paul Cacia Kanstul on eBay. Which looks like a MLP Benge with a few tweaks. Always wanted to try one of those as well.
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Yammie
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: 1X Reply with quote

This 1X sounds like Dave Trigg's horn. The last time I saw him, he mentioned he had bought a 1X from the Hal Oringer collection and he really liked it, but wanted the bell a little lighter. Besides being an incredible player, he is able to detect the smallest change on a horn. When Roy Lawler was still in the Orlando area, Dave could honestly feel the difference of one or two thousandths in leadpipe Venturi and could correctly identify which horn had the "bigger" Venturi. Me, I could take a set or two to notice I was playing my 5MC instead of my 5M

I'm glad the horn is already gone, because I would have bought it in a second! Frank Greene also has or had a different 1X of his own, not sure if he's still playing it.

Bill
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