screw-rim mouthpieces?

[Eddie Jeffries]

I am a senior citizen who grew up knowing only about 1-piece mouthpieces.

Now I read about almost everyone using 2-piece or even 3-piece mouthpieces.

I want to know everything about it.
But I want it kept short and simple, in 50 words or less

Do all companies use the same threads to screw the rim to the body?

When somone talks about putting a Bach 1.25 rim on a Bach 3 body
(or choose any other example), how do they get a smooth transition from the rim to the cup?
Isn't there usually a sharp ridge because of the diameter difference where the rim meets the cup?

If anyone will explain these new-fangled mouthpieces to me,
I will return the favor by sharing my stories of 30 cents per gallon for gasoline, with the price sometimes dropping to 19 cents per gallon when 2 gasoline stations across the street from each other engaged in a "gasoline war".
That was back when dinosaurs like myself roamed the land.
_________________
eddiejeffries@hotmail.com

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[terry horace]

Warning: This isn't going to be less than 50 words!

"Two-piece mouthpiece" can refer to either a rim that screws off the cup and shank (the "body" as you described it), or a back-bore that unscrews from the upper, cup & rim part of the mouthpiece.

Bob Reeves is the example that first comes to mind when thinking about the "screw-rim" kind of two-piece mouthpieces as most of his pieces are made that way. The old Giardinelli's were as well. There is no standard thread size in use for threaded rims. Bach, Reeves, Giardinelli and others use different sizes.

Mouthpiece makers often will have to "blend in" the rim or cup by hand (on a lathe) to achieve a smooth surface if the rim's inner diameter differs from the cup's diameter at the point where the rim has been threaded. Obviously this alters the shape of the cup and /or rim, so it isn't always ideal.

The other kind of two-piece mouthpiece, is where the cup and rim are one part, and the back-bore is another. Many custom mouthpiece makers use this system. There is no standard thread size, although the thread size used by Warbuton has become something of a DeFacto industry standard because they are used by many, many makers (Pickett, Wedge, Parke, Kanstul, ACB, Frost, Warburton, etc.) Some mouthpiece makers, such as Bach, still utilize proprietary thread sizes, though most custom makers can cut whatever thread size you ask for.

Most mouthpiece makers will also make three-piece mouthpieces if you ask them to. Not very many sell their mouthpieces stocked as three-piece models, but most offer them as a special order.

Also keep in mind - more and more small mouthpiece makers are using computer controlled, digital technology to cut and design these mouthpieces. The ability to swap rims and cups on the computer, then create the piece with a CNC lathe is much different than the old "measure twice, cut once" system that required a great deal of craftsmanship and experience. (No slight on the CNC fellows. That has a whole different, and equally challenging, set of obstacles.)

I hope that helps answer your questions (and I hope my information is correct - please correct me where I am wrong TH'ers)

The real question is: WHY?
The amount of variables in a mouthpiece is pretty extraordinary when you think about it. As trumpeters, is it really helpful to constantly externalize our playing issues and blame the equipment? Yes, it could always be a little better, a little easier, a littler brighter, a little darker - but at what point do we just go with what we have and hit the practice room? (Working on that myself!)

[Eddie Jeffries]

Thank you for that explanation.

That every company uses different threads is very disheartening.

It reminds me of cornet mouthpieces made 1880 to 1960.
So many different shank sizes and different tapers.
Then everybody finally settled on the Bach standard for shanks.

I hope that the mouthpiece companies will finally settle on one standard for threads so that the parts from different companies become interchangeable.

Thank you for that explanation.
I do appreciate it.
Although I think you went over the 50-word limit

BTW, you have repeated something that I have heard before about the original Giardinell mouthpieces all being 2-piece.
About 10 years ago I had a used Giardinelli mouthpiece that was 1-piece.
Would that have been made by Giardinelli in modern times,
or would another company have taken over making them?
10 years ago I bought it used, but don't own it anymore.
_________________
eddiejeffries@hotmail.com

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[TKSop]

Some of the old Giardinelli's were 3-piece, too (screw-rim, cup section, backbore section), too.

Screw-rims several different kinds of threads are used, and how far down the rim and cup sections meet varies too.


Generally, the vast majority of companies now that make tops (rim+cup) and backbores that screw together use the same threads (commonly referred to as "Warburton" threads)... the only exception that comes to mind is Breslmair. Giardinelli, Tottle/DiOrio were different.

There isn't necessarily a right or wrong, but it's nice to see the convergence to one preferred standard - gives us more choices, which is nice.

[cheiden]

FWIW I think screw-rim pieces make sense only if you're committing to a single maker and often only for a custom piece specifically due to the issue of "blending" where the rim meets the cup. I'm a fan of Bob Reeves.

I've never used the Warburton system of tops and backbores, but if you didn't need to mix up rims and cups I'd probably recommend going with that system just because so many manufacturers support it, and you don't have to suffer the rim/cup blending.

Even better would be to find a mouthpiece line that you like and just stick with 1-piece. These days most folks can find a workable solution from places like Curry or GR without ever worrying about switching parts.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[mm55]

You can actually break the mouthpiece down into four interchangeable components. You can have a rim that screws onto a cup, a cup that screws onto the top of a backbore, and a shank sleeve that screws or slides onto the bottom of a backbore. And yes, the transitions can create sharp discontinuities, some of which can be resolved by machining down one or more of the parts.

But I think that one-piece mouthpieces have always been more popular, and still are to this day.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg

[cbtj51]

Hello Eddie,

I'll try to keep this short, but 50 words, not possible. I started using a Reeve's mouthpiece in 1971. It was a 2 piece (Rim/Bottom) setup, but that had nothing to do with my choosing it. It was a just a great fit for me. The screw part did not become important to me until I started needing different mps for different types of playing that came up. I have been using the same 41 rim for decades that fits all of the different bottoms that change the sound characteristics (41 S for Big Band and Latin, 41 C for Classical, 41 FE for Flugelhorn and 41 C2J for Brass Quintet and Chamber Orchestra and if I owned a cornet, I'd still use the 41 Rim on the appropriate bottom). The important common denominator is that the Rim stays the same. The same 41 Rim fits all, no custom shaving or adjustments here. The Rim feel is the same, only the physical feedback changes and then in the least invasive way to accomplish the goal of the style characteristics. Exceeding the 50 words or less, the # of pieces is not important, getting the result(s) that you are looking for with the least # of variables is the only goal. Lots of practice minimizes the transition from one to another. Hope this helps. Oh, and I remember 30 cent gasoline as well.
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces

[Eddie Jeffries]

[furcifer]

The whole idea of these systems is to be able to stay with the same rim. Finding different cups and/or backbores (or sleeves) within your chosen brand is not really the challenging part.

Even with the same threads between different brands, the inside ridges may not match up. (That's not to say that somebody hasn't found some Frankenstein setup they swear by, LOL)

Even within the same brand, such as my old Giardinelli 3-piece setup - I had a 6 rim, a 6S and a 6M cup (and the 3 and 4 backbores). I wouldn't put a 5S cup on a 6 rim, because the ridge wouldn't match up right, and there's just no reason to. Neither would I use another brand's backbore even if it were threaded the same, because the lip of an unmatched ridge right above the throat could create an undesirable/unpredictable node.

Now, my old Giardinelli setup hasn't been used since 1986, LOL! (I jumped on the Marcinkiewicz train, even though it's even harder to spell than Giardinelli) I don't play enough different kinds of stuff to warrant that kind of versatility anymore and I love my new Marcinkiewicz E14 Bobby Shew #1 for what I do play, but if I were to do it again now, I'd probably go with the Warburton 3-piece. Also, since I play a Schilke 40B on valve bone and a Marcinkiewicz 3FLD on flugel, I figure if I ever again need a total-birdbath "legit" piece, I'll just drag out my old Callet 1CV. It just doesn't bother me that much to switch rims for these other relatively-rare occasions anymore.
_________________
Stomvi S3 Big Bell -2018
Bach 180ST37 -'80
Benge CG -'78
Buescher LP 9 -1926
Getzen 896S-4 flugel -'86
Conn 18H bone -'64
Getzen M2003E Bb/G bugle
Getzen Titleist 2v soprano G -'79
King K-50 G mellophone
Henri Gautier Cornet C/Bb/A -1919

[Hudson08]

I recently read on the Bob Reeves site that his making of two-piece mouthpieces were partly (if not greatly) inspired by the rising price of brass and cost savings with two-piece pieces. He states that something like 80% of the brass is wasted in the making of 1 piece mouthpieces. This makes sense to me, if you think about the blank need to facilitate the diameter of the rim. That same blank is also trimmed down to the much smaller diameter of the shank. Costly, precious brass wasted in shavings on the machine shop floor!

Either way, I love Reeves' pieces, not necessarily because they have interchangeable pieces, but that does make it convenient for the reasons listed above by cbtj51 for sure!

Happy playing!