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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:14 am Post subject: Using 3rd valve slide in fast passages and beyond |
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I confess: althought I know the benefits of adjusting intonation using the 3rd valve slide primarily for low C# and D below the staff - I don't use this technique for my amateur home playing.
However my question is regarding common professional usage of intonation adjustment using the 3rd valve slide.
I noticed watching YT that when pros play slow stuff they always push and pull the 3rd slide ring on low C#'s and D's.
However I couldn't trace the usage of 3rd slide adjustment in fast passages. For instance, some relatively fast bebop passages or even relatively fast mainstream Jazz soloing.
Is the 3rd slide intonation compensation a technique that is used depending on the playing situation?
Last edited by SaxoTrump on Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:08 am Post subject: Re: Using 3rd valve slide in fast passages and beyond |
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SaxoTrump wrote: | I confess: althought I know the benefits of adjusting intonation using the 3rd valve slide primarily for low C# and D below the staff - I don't use this technique for my amateur home playing.
However my question is regarding common professional usage of intonation adjustment using the 3rd valve slide.
I noticed watching YT that when pros play slow staff they always push and pull the 3rd slide ring on low C#'s and D's.
However I couldn't trace the usage of 3rd slide adjustment in fast passages. For instance, some relatively fast bebop passages or even relatively fast mainstream Jazz soloing.
Is the 3rd slide intonation compensation a technique that is used depending on the playing situation? |
In my experience it sometimes is necessary to use both first and third valve slide (or triggers, like on my Getzen Custom). Most trumpets and cornets present intonation problems with these notes; some less, others more. My King hardly requires compensation but due to "the general surroundings" sometimes I have used the trigger (first valve). Must confess that for some years I continued to use 440 Hz not aware of the bandīs "upgrading" to 442. No one ever complained - but that was with my old Getzen Eterna and that horn was very well tuned-in; rarely I used the first (trigger) or third slide. But, when I found out and adjusted, playing suddenly became more comfortable! The Bach 1B definitively needs third valve slide out C#). 1cm compared to the Getzen 300 2 mm!
Then other tones might have to be compensated, by ear/mouth or trigger; A above staff, E middle staff might be tricky and so forth.
So, as I see it, the use of these slides is a function of 1) the individual horn 2)the ability of the individual player to compensate 3) the tonal surroundings - I mean if my section -mate produces tones slightly out of tune I may have to compensate (as of course Iīm the only one in the band that plays in tune....)
In very fast runs it sure is a challenge to compensate......Triggers help undo peculiar movements On the other hand (ear) dissonances get more prominent on long tones.
Our very "well pitched" conductor recommends finding out, by the use of a tuner, how your horn, per se functions in these respects. Than adding yourself!
Anyhow Iīm an amateur however extremely sensitive to "out of tune" music - regardless of horn, clarinet, voice, whatever.
And, I suspect an abundance of views with regards to this topic. We have pros here and they might tell something completely different! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Using 3rd valve slide in fast passages and beyond |
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That's the problem with myself: I'm somewhat quite flexible in accepting "out of tune" notes. If a musical instrument is obviously quite out of tune with itself, like my guitar, I hear that and I'll tune up. However my not so fine pitch sensitiveness allows me to play single line tunes without trigging the slides.
Again, I hear it when I'm quite out of tune, especially on wider interval jumps but when running a scale-wise passage up and down it's much harder to hear it being out of tune.
Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
...
Our very "well pitched" conductor recommends finding out, by the use of a tuner, how your horn, per se functions in these respects. Than adding yourself!
Anyhow Iīm an amateur however extremely sensitive to "out of tune" music - regardless of horn, clarinet, voice, whatever.
...
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: |
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For anything that goes by too quickly, I don't mess with slide adjustments. For anything in something played at a slower tempo, and especially notes that are held out for any length of time, I definitely adjust with the slides. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9361 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Assuming you're proficient with slide usage, if a passage moves too quickly to use the slide cleanly, then it's too fast to matter - don't bother with it. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I rarely bother with slides for quick passages. The exception being for certain quick phrases where I can just leave the slide out.
For example, my daily warm up includes a collection of Stamp scales where the certain tones are held before continuing. When a C# or D is just a passing tone I don't bother with the slides. When C# or D are held notes I always kick out the slide.
FWIW I tend to favor the 1st slide over the 3rd, when it's an option. That and I keep my slides lubed to they're really fast. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Great replies so far!
I wanted to ask you - how many of you (who'll reply) started to use slide adjustments naturally because the out of tune notes didn't satisfy you? - Meaning you are really pitch sensitive.
On the contrary - how many of you started to use slide adjustments because of band requirements or otherwise just conscious effort? Meaning of course you weren't too much naturally aware of the pitch imperfections. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Being honest, I used the slides pretty intermittently in my youth and I wasn't very good at hearing the poor intonation. But many years later when I took lessons I did a whole lot of playing in unison with a pro who had a rock solid sense of pitch. If I wanted to match him precisely I had to do a whole lot of pitch bending (which I did for a while) or I had to get hip to using the slides.
Also, when I studied piano repair and tuning in college that may have made me more conscious of tuning imperfections. We had to practice hearing beat patterns. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: |
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When I'm playing something "on the page," like a fast Arban etude or a concerto or something, I know that the adjustment is coming, so I'm able to use the slide. It should be easy enough to do, even on very fast 16-note runs. No problem.
But when improvising, sometimes I get the idea a fraction of a second too late - so on fast improvised runs, I generally don't use 'em. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: |
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SaxoTrump wrote: | Great replies so far!
I wanted to ask you - how many of you (who'll reply) started to use slide adjustments naturally because the out of tune notes didn't satisfy you? - Meaning you are really pitch sensitive.
On the contrary - how many of you started to use slide adjustments because of band requirements or otherwise just conscious effort? Meaning of course you weren't too much naturally aware of the pitch imperfections. |
I wasn't really even aware of it until I was almost a Sophomore in high school - I was at band camp that summer, and the orchestra - one of the many ensembles I was in - was doing this thing that had low C#s in it, and a clinician we were working with had us making the intonation adjustment. From that point on I was a bit more aware of it. Later it was a combination of sort of just knowing which notes were out and by how much, and using my ears to compensate when necessary. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Clarke studies are good for working in the habit of kicking out the slide on certain notes on fast passages. As always with Clarke studies, start slow. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Just to stir thing up, it's my general feeling that notes played quickly don't suffer the minor intonation quirks the way held notes do. I think we unwittingly lip them to where they need to be and that only when the note is held that we drift out of pitch. It's a stretch, but hang with me.
It's crude example but I always return to the trick someone showed me a long time ago. Play a quick tempo chromatic scale from F# on top of the staff up to C and back down repeatedly. Then without stopping, switch from the proper fingerings to just pressing and releasing a single valve, any valve, and the chromatic scale will continue to sound just about the same. Many of the fingerings are nowhere near right but the right notes come out just the same, just because our embouchure puts them there. If you were to stop on one of the mis-fingered notes then the pitch would almost certainly drift from the wanted chromatic to whatever that fingering dictates. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2327 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Jazz and BeeBop - what does tuning have to do with that??
A Joke, people, a joke!
I would say that in use, practical use, if you're there long enough to hear the sharpness then use the slide and or lip to adjust pitch.. but can we hear those quick passages? Does it offend our ear?
I think in playing things like Clarke studies where the D or C# repeats and are a prominent note in tonatlity, that lingering pitch starts to become noticeable, and likewise in jazz licks... one should pay attention. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5212 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think that I'm more likely to have to decide not to use the slide than the reverse. It's just what happens when I play those notes -- the slide goes out. If I find that whatever I'm doing by habit isn't sounding good, I'll evaluate other options -- moving the slide earlier, using the 1st slide, using a combination, not bothering at all. Whatever sounds best is right.
I find a lot of developing players seem to forget that you can leave your slide out as long as you aren't playing any 3rd-valve notes that don't need the slide (i.e., for the most part, notes fingered 2-3). I see a lot of people moving the thing in and out like a trombone when they could have just "set it... and forget it!" Unless you're playing in a flat key, you can pretty much default to having the slide set for D. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2327 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I find a lot of developing players seem to forget that you can leave your slide out as long as you aren't playing any 3rd-valve notes that don't need the slide (i.e., for the most part, notes fingered 2-3). I see a lot of people moving the thing in and out like a trombone when they could have just "set it... and forget it!" Unless you're playing in a flat key, you can pretty much default to having the slide set for D. |
Yes, this too.. and remember we also have a 1st valve slide which works on the low C# & D plut the F & A on the top of the staff... _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:50 am Post subject: |
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SaxoTrump wrote: | Great replies so far!
I wanted to ask you - how many of you (who'll reply) started to use slide adjustments naturally because the out of tune notes didn't satisfy you? - Meaning you are really pitch sensitive.
On the contrary - how many of you started to use slide adjustments because of band requirements or otherwise just conscious effort? Meaning of course you weren't too much naturally aware of the pitch imperfections. |
As my playing almost immediately made me a member of a (brass) band, 58 years ago, I had to watch out from the very beginning. Of course my sense of keeping myself within borders has developed during the years. Its a mixed blessing to be sensitive; sometimes its a damned nuisance; on the other hand your subconscious mind may help you: once, in a song "Donīt get round much anymore", the trombone section started by sliding D-G requiring me starting B C C# D above staff - but this time the bastards raised a half note - I pressed the second valve "as stated" etc but to my surprise my lips produced tones a half note up......so after all I played in tune.... Could be done way up but weird experience.
I would say band requirements help hone your sensitivity but it sure helps if you have some basic ability. As far as I can recall I could hear not being in tune - even if I didnīt know how to rectify it, already in the beginning. When I began playing I had no idea A was 440; nowadays I can tune myself because I kinda memorized it, then adding 2 Hz ( )
This is interesting by itself; I think that we to some extent can learn - new neurological findings (mirror neurons)point to possibilities of learning due to intricate interplay between audio/motor neurons. Same procedure as in learning different dialects. Unfortunately some people seem to be absolutely "tone-deaf". But this seems to be very rare, as far as I know. _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SaxoTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010 Posts: 270 Location: Eastern Europe
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Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: |
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So would you all say that even if someone is not naturally highly pitch sensitive he will be forced to adjust the intonation in a band situation having a reference to other band members, who are hopefully in tune with... what? - ok, the band at least must be in tune with itself. It makes sense.
In other words, when playing in a "home-alone" environment and not being forced to adjust the pitch and also not being naturally fine pitch sensitive it should be pretty hard to develop the sense of pitch?
So far I've been playing my Jazz standard tunes without any reference (except basic reference to a chromatic tuner) - so, should I at least start playing along some backup tracks and find if I hear intervalic pitch discrepancies? |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Using 3rd valve slide in fast passages and beyond |
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SaxoTrump wrote: | Is the 3rd slide intonation compensation a technique that is used depending on the playing situation? |
Yes. If one is playing slow enough that one can manipulate the slide, then it's probably best to use it. But if the music is fast enough that moving the slide quick enough is a problem, then the music is moving along fast enough that it's not going to be noticeable if the note is slightly out of tune.
The Clarke Technical Studies provides a good example of this. If you are first learning them and playing them slowly, it's going to be noticeable when those C#'s and D's are out of tune, and you'll probably want to move the slide. But if you are flying through one of the exercises, you're hardly going to be able to manipulate the slide fast enough, and it's going to be hardly, if at all noticeable if the C#'s and D's are a little high in pitch.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1469 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:25 am Post subject: |
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SaxoTrump wrote: | So would you all say that even if someone is not naturally highly pitch sensitive he will be forced to adjust the intonation in a band situation having a reference to other band members, who are hopefully in tune with... what? - ok, the band at least must be in tune with itself. It makes sense.
In other words, when playing in a "home-alone" environment and not being forced to adjust the pitch and also not being naturally fine pitch sensitive it should be pretty hard to develop the sense of pitch?
So far I've been playing my Jazz standard tunes without any reference (except basic reference to a chromatic tuner) - so, should I at least start playing along some backup tracks and find if I hear intervalic pitch discrepancies? |
It sure helps (or might be an ordeal) to play in a band. As others have written, fast runs not that exposed. But "Nice work if you can get it"! "Or "Slide ride"!
However I would like to suggest practising tuning already at home all by yourself; use some tuning device (they arenīt that expensive), buy a small "tonbank" (=acting as a reference), try to find out tones that seem to be tricky and slowly, day by day you will find out how to compensate, memorizing (repetitio est mater studiorum) your "lip/face-language" setting. In fact you seem to be on the right track already listening to real music. But it might be easier the way I suggested. Or not!
In my experience (as an amateur) surprisingly many players have not devoted time enough truly finding out various tuning problems.
As written above, regular F top of staff, G middle staff, you name them can be played , even "attacked" without any thoughts on tuning.
I can play a C major scale terribly out of tune if I wanted to, so can you - might even be a good trick to begin with...record yourself doing it - can you bend in the wrong direction then you can learn to bend in the right one!
ps you write about band members...I can tell you its a real drag to play in a band where the prominent player(s) continually vary the pitch! Which one to use as the reference -....arghhh! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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