Using 3rd valve slide in fast passages and beyond

[SaxoTrump]

I confess: althought I know the benefits of adjusting intonation using the 3rd valve slide primarily for low C# and D below the staff - I don't use this technique for my amateur home playing.

However my question is regarding common professional usage of intonation adjustment using the 3rd valve slide.
I noticed watching YT that when pros play slow stuff they always push and pull the 3rd slide ring on low C#'s and D's.
However I couldn't trace the usage of 3rd slide adjustment in fast passages. For instance, some relatively fast bebop passages or even relatively fast mainstream Jazz soloing.
Is the 3rd slide intonation compensation a technique that is used depending on the playing situation?

[Seymor B Fudd]

[SaxoTrump]

That's the problem with myself: I'm somewhat quite flexible in accepting "out of tune" notes. If a musical instrument is obviously quite out of tune with itself, like my guitar, I hear that and I'll tune up. However my not so fine pitch sensitiveness allows me to play single line tunes without trigging the slides.
Again, I hear it when I'm quite out of tune, especially on wider interval jumps but when running a scale-wise passage up and down it's much harder to hear it being out of tune.

[trickg]

For anything that goes by too quickly, I don't mess with slide adjustments. For anything in something played at a slower tempo, and especially notes that are held out for any length of time, I definitely adjust with the slides.
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[Dale Proctor]

Assuming you're proficient with slide usage, if a passage moves too quickly to use the slide cleanly, then it's too fast to matter - don't bother with it.
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[cheiden]

I rarely bother with slides for quick passages. The exception being for certain quick phrases where I can just leave the slide out.

For example, my daily warm up includes a collection of Stamp scales where the certain tones are held before continuing. When a C# or D is just a passing tone I don't bother with the slides. When C# or D are held notes I always kick out the slide.

FWIW I tend to favor the 1st slide over the 3rd, when it's an option. That and I keep my slides lubed to they're really fast.
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[SaxoTrump]

Great replies so far!

I wanted to ask you - how many of you (who'll reply) started to use slide adjustments naturally because the out of tune notes didn't satisfy you? - Meaning you are really pitch sensitive.
On the contrary - how many of you started to use slide adjustments because of band requirements or otherwise just conscious effort? Meaning of course you weren't too much naturally aware of the pitch imperfections.

[cheiden]

Being honest, I used the slides pretty intermittently in my youth and I wasn't very good at hearing the poor intonation. But many years later when I took lessons I did a whole lot of playing in unison with a pro who had a rock solid sense of pitch. If I wanted to match him precisely I had to do a whole lot of pitch bending (which I did for a while) or I had to get hip to using the slides.

Also, when I studied piano repair and tuning in college that may have made me more conscious of tuning imperfections. We had to practice hearing beat patterns.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Turkle]

When I'm playing something "on the page," like a fast Arban etude or a concerto or something, I know that the adjustment is coming, so I'm able to use the slide. It should be easy enough to do, even on very fast 16-note runs. No problem.

But when improvising, sometimes I get the idea a fraction of a second too late - so on fast improvised runs, I generally don't use 'em.
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[trickg]

[starkadder]

Clarke studies are good for working in the habit of kicking out the slide on certain notes on fast passages. As always with Clarke studies, start slow.

[cheiden]

Just to stir thing up, it's my general feeling that notes played quickly don't suffer the minor intonation quirks the way held notes do. I think we unwittingly lip them to where they need to be and that only when the note is held that we drift out of pitch. It's a stretch, but hang with me.

It's crude example but I always return to the trick someone showed me a long time ago. Play a quick tempo chromatic scale from F# on top of the staff up to C and back down repeatedly. Then without stopping, switch from the proper fingerings to just pressing and releasing a single valve, any valve, and the chromatic scale will continue to sound just about the same. Many of the fingerings are nowhere near right but the right notes come out just the same, just because our embouchure puts them there. If you were to stop on one of the mis-fingered notes then the pitch would almost certainly drift from the wanted chromatic to whatever that fingering dictates.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[zaferis]

Jazz and BeeBop - what does tuning have to do with that??

A Joke, people, a joke!


I would say that in use, practical use, if you're there long enough to hear the sharpness then use the slide and or lip to adjust pitch.. but can we hear those quick passages? Does it offend our ear?

I think in playing things like Clarke studies where the D or C# repeats and are a prominent note in tonatlity, that lingering pitch starts to become noticeable, and likewise in jazz licks... one should pay attention.
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[Nonsense Eliminator]

I think that I'm more likely to have to decide not to use the slide than the reverse. It's just what happens when I play those notes -- the slide goes out. If I find that whatever I'm doing by habit isn't sounding good, I'll evaluate other options -- moving the slide earlier, using the 1st slide, using a combination, not bothering at all. Whatever sounds best is right.

I find a lot of developing players seem to forget that you can leave your slide out as long as you aren't playing any 3rd-valve notes that don't need the slide (i.e., for the most part, notes fingered 2-3). I see a lot of people moving the thing in and out like a trombone when they could have just "set it... and forget it!" Unless you're playing in a flat key, you can pretty much default to having the slide set for D.
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NBO

[zaferis]

[Seymor B Fudd]

[SaxoTrump]

So would you all say that even if someone is not naturally highly pitch sensitive he will be forced to adjust the intonation in a band situation having a reference to other band members, who are hopefully in tune with... what? - ok, the band at least must be in tune with itself. It makes sense.

In other words, when playing in a "home-alone" environment and not being forced to adjust the pitch and also not being naturally fine pitch sensitive it should be pretty hard to develop the sense of pitch?

So far I've been playing my Jazz standard tunes without any reference (except basic reference to a chromatic tuner) - so, should I at least start playing along some backup tracks and find if I hear intervalic pitch discrepancies?

[John Mohan]

[Seymor B Fudd]