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Richard III
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Location: Anacortes, WA
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 Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I sincerely hope I'm getting it narrowed down. Either the Reeves 1-1/4C or the Stork 1B+26D is likely to be "the one" that I will play for quite some time. I have a planned time to get some trusted ears out front where I can play both of them and see if they prefer the sound I'm getting out of one or the other, and that should make the decision final. |
I've started recording myself while trying different setups. I've been amazed at the differences. No waiting for others to comment. Which would be their ears not mine anyway. I got together with two trumpet playing friends sometime back. We had maybe 15 trumpets. One person would play the same phrase and then switch horn, over and over. The others would be in an adjacent area where they couldn't see what was being played. Then comments and narrowing it down. But that was another person's ears. Still interesting.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | | I got together with two trumpet playing friends sometime back. We had maybe 15 trumpets. One person would play the same phrase and then switch horn, over and over. The others would be in an adjacent area where they couldn't see what was being played. Then comments and narrowing it down. But that was another person's ears. Still interesting. |
Indeed - this is always an interesting experience.
What I've found, generally, is:
What *feels* the best (most responsive, most comfortable - most predictable) to play is almost always chosen to be what *sounds* best to the blind listener.
What *sounds* best to me doesn't correlate as strongly to what *sounds* best to the blind listener.
Ofcourse, if we're married to a certain sound in our own heads and we hear the sound we think we're after, the temptation could be overwhelming... but maybe that's of secondary importance to us providing the audience with the best sounding performance?
And if it comes at the expense of the most predictable instrument to play as well then it could rob us of the ability to improve the consistency in our playing?
So as counterproductive as it might seem, perhaps looking for "the sound in our heads" (as perceived through our own ears) is something we should seek to train ourselves to pay less attention to?
Perhaps, just perhaps, "another persons ears" can point us in a slightly different direction and focus us on something more important than the sound we hear.
(Edit: reading this back it seems almost accusatory - it's not directed any one person in any way whatsoever, it's my personal musings and internal debate on the subject... it would be interesting to know what others think, though in the interests of fairness that might be better put in a different thread) |
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jaysonr
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: |
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This is good stuff.
I have some pre-conceived notions about how I think these pieces sound. I hope I don't project that when I'm playing for my blind listener.
I like different things about each of them. I think my sound is a bit bigger on the Stork, and the Stork 1 rim is very comfortable. I like the way the Reeves feels and plays the best, but I fear it might not have quite the sound that the Stork has. Conversely, I feel like my articulations are better on the Reeves, and that intonation might be a bit better on the Stork with my C trumpet.
They are very, very, close and either would be a fine mouthpiece for me to use for years to come if I didn't have the other to compare it to. There are very slight differences between them, and they are both very slightly better than the 1C/5B for me in several ways. The 1C/5B was quite open for me...if it was a 24/24 setup, it felt more like a 23/24 and that could have been due to the very open throat entrance of the 5B cup.
The reason I kept trying other pieces after finding that one and liking it so much was that if I'm being completely honest I'm not a strong enough player to fill it up on a full-time basis. If I were a full time player or trumpet student, it would be different, but I'm quite busy with my Seminary studies, my job at the Seminary and my church that I simply don't have more than about an hour a day to put into the horn realistically.
I have learned that endurance for me is affected more by how free a piece blows than the I.D., which was pretty eye opening for me because my safari first started when I thought I needed a smaller I.D. to get more endurance, but I actually found the opposite.
After all of the dust settles, I might draft a mega-post with all of the things I've discovered about myself and about mouthpieces in general on this study. I'm sure it won't help everyone as we are all different, but I hope it might help some.
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Richard III
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: |
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And then there is intonation. I recently went through all the same exercise on my french horn. I settled on the mouthpiece that I thought gave me the best sound. Off to band practice and there were some intonation issues. I just ran through a comparison and the mouthpiece that I had been using before gives the best intonation. The one that I had just switched to has two notes that are glaring problems. Conclusion is that it's easier to work on sound when the intonation is already there.
Horn has issues that most trumpet players never have to deal with, and that is close harmonics making note placement a sometimes precarious endeavor. Tuning and alternate fingerings and deciding whether the F side or the Bb side of the double horn gives the best response, tone and character is another.
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Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
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jaysonr
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, intonation is a big thing, and so is accuracy.
So far in my time w/ both piece I seem to miss less with the Stork, especially on wider interval leaps.
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| TKSop wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | I got together with two trumpet playing friends sometime back. We had maybe 15 trumpets. One person would play the same phrase and then switch horn, over and over. The others would be in an adjacent area where they couldn't see what was being played. Then comments and narrowing it down. But that was another person's ears. Still interesting. |
Indeed - this is always an interesting experience.
What I've found, generally, is:
What *feels* the best (most responsive, most comfortable - most predictable) to play is almost always chosen to be what *sounds* best to the blind listener.
What *sounds* best to me doesn't correlate as strongly to what *sounds* best to the blind listener.
Ofcourse, if we're married to a certain sound in our own heads and we hear the sound we think we're after, the temptation could be overwhelming... but maybe that's of secondary importance to us providing the audience with the best sounding performance?
And if it comes at the expense of the most predictable instrument to play as well then it could rob us of the ability to improve the consistency in our playing?
So as counterproductive as it might seem, perhaps looking for "the sound in our heads" (as perceived through our own ears) is something we should seek to train ourselves to pay less attention to?
Perhaps, just perhaps, "another persons ears" can point us in a slightly different direction and focus us on something more important than the sound we hear.
(Edit: reading this back it seems almost accusatory - it's not directed any one person in any way whatsoever, it's my personal musings and internal debate on the subject... it would be interesting to know what others think, though in the interests of fairness that might be better put in a different thread) |
Hi TKSop
I personally don't read this at all accusatory. I reckon that you make a very good point. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that mouthpiece/horn combinations that enable a player to play better equate to sounding better to a blind listener. This makes sense, and you raise an interesting point, that maybe we would be better seeking equipment which makes us sound better as a player rather than being over concerned regarding the exact sound we hear.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
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Seymor B Fudd
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Joined: 17 Oct 2015
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | | Richard III wrote: | | I got together with two trumpet playing friends sometime back. We had maybe 15 trumpets. One person would play the same phrase and then switch horn, over and over. The others would be in an adjacent area where they couldn't see what was being played. Then comments and narrowing it down. But that was another person's ears. Still interesting. |
Indeed - this is always an interesting experience.
What I've found, generally, is:
What *feels* the best (most responsive, most comfortable - most predictable) to play is almost always chosen to be what *sounds* best to the blind listener.
What *sounds* best to me doesn't correlate as strongly to what *sounds* best to the blind listener.
Ofcourse, if we're married to a certain sound in our own heads and we hear the sound we think we're after, the temptation could be overwhelming... but maybe that's of secondary importance to us providing the audience with the best sounding performance?
And if it comes at the expense of the most predictable instrument to play as well then it could rob us of the ability to improve the consistency in our playing?
So as counterproductive as it might seem, perhaps looking for "the sound in our heads" (as perceived through our own ears) is something we should seek to train ourselves to pay less attention to?
Perhaps, just perhaps, "another persons ears" can point us in a slightly different direction and focus us on something more important than the sound we hear.
(Edit: reading this back it seems almost accusatory - it's not directed any one person in any way whatsoever, it's my personal musings and internal debate on the subject... it would be interesting to know what others think, though in the interests of fairness that might be better put in a different thread) |
Hi TKSop
I personally don't read this at all accusatory. I reckon that you make a very good point. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that mouthpiece/horn combinations that enable a player to play better equate to sounding better to a blind listener. This makes sense, and you raise an interesting point, that maybe we would be better seeking equipment which makes us sound better as a player rather than being over concerned regarding the exact sound we hear.
Take Care
Lou |
Month ago I borrowed a Jettone Studio C which immediately gave me more stable high register (decent Eb, occasionally E)but a tiny trifle hard to "pinpoint" the notes - yes I know, one has to get used to these things, generally after one hour or so, better accuracy; thought I´d found the Holy Grail! I felt amazingly unafflicted after hard rehearsals but day after, in the brass band a trifle akward first part of rehearsal, using Wick Ultra 7C - blaming the rim of the Jettone. My "Brand Lead" better rim but a bit nasal compared to the Jettone (both are more "nasal" than I prefer).
Then I tried my 1970 Bach 10 1/2....fellow next to me now jokes about "mouthpiece of the week"....Whole array of pieces in my "studio"....then I found an old Schilke 11A - once bought to fit together with a cornet Schilke 11E. Never able to use it, intonation problems with the 11E. But the other day I brought the 11 A along and was complimented due to "sounding better, lovely core". My own feeling is a very secure "Ansetzen", I am the one at the helm; high register now E more often. Besides that I find it very easy to go straight to my cornet piece, same kind of rim, sort of.
What I hear in my head seems to resemble the sound in their heads - they tell me I sound better! To analyze this perhaps a good idea would be to record oneself playing different mouthpieces. I do think that I would pick up the tonal qualities - but still the others could be the better judges?! 
Here I am sitting in the middle of my collection, safari put on standby, consoling myself I finally made it home vis-à-vis the cornet mpc. Could it be that this 11A is the final?? How about the Holy Grail above? More than one out there?? And, why do I have to pull that tuning slide that far out with this piece?
Search and Thou shall find 
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Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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dstdenis
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Joined: 25 May 2013
Posts: 2123
Location: Atlanta GA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| jaysonr wrote: | | I have learned that endurance for me is affected more by how free a piece blows than the I.D., which was pretty eye opening for me because my safari first started when I thought I needed a smaller I.D. to get more endurance, but I actually found the opposite. |
I found the same. The only thing I would add is that the pieces with larger ID also have a proportionally larger cup, and I think that reduces my endurance. I compensated for this by getting a piece with an ID that fits me well and has a slightly shallower cup and tighter backbore (if available). For me, these pieces are the Stork 1.25DT and before that, the Yamaha 17B4.
I also found more endurance by changing my practice approach and the way I prepare for a performance. Taking more rests during practice and ending the session while still fresh has helped a lot. Also practicing the difficult repertoire spots more thoroughly so I won't be fighting the instrument and wasting effort during performance. For me, sometimes these non-equipment things are more important.
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Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
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Trumpetingbynurture
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I sincerely hope I'm getting it narrowed down. Either the Reeves 1-1/4C or the Stork 1B+26D is likely to be "the one" that I will play for quite some time. I have a planned time to get some trusted ears out front where I can play both of them and see if they prefer the sound I'm getting out of one or the other, and that should make the decision final. |
hahah yeah, I was just having fun. How are those pieces working out for you? |
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joe_PhD
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Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: I found my holy grail, and now I'm terrified. |
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| jaysonr wrote: | | Now...I'm terrified I'll lose it or something will happen to it |
Easy...send it to Greg Black or Vladimir (Dillon Music). Tell them you want an exact copy. They do GREAT work. |
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: I found my holy grail, and now I'm terrified. |
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| joe_PhD wrote: | | jaysonr wrote: | | Now...I'm terrified I'll lose it or something will happen to it |
Easy...send it to Greg Black or Vladimir (Dillon Music). Tell them you want an exact copy. They do GREAT work. |
Good suggestions, except as the threads developed it's turned out that the piece described as the "holy grail" in the first post was in fact not Jason's holy grail...  |
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jaysonr
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: I found my holy grail, and now I'm terrified. |
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| TKSop wrote: | | joe_PhD wrote: | | jaysonr wrote: | | Now...I'm terrified I'll lose it or something will happen to it |
Easy...send it to Greg Black or Vladimir (Dillon Music). Tell them you want an exact copy. They do GREAT work. |
Good suggestions, except as the threads developed it's turned out that the piece described as the "holy grail" in the first post was in fact not Jason's holy grail... |
Wasn't even close, haha.
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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joe_PhD
Regular Member
Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: I found my holy grail, and now I'm terrified. |
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| jaysonr wrote: | | TKSop wrote: | | joe_PhD wrote: | | jaysonr wrote: | | Now...I'm terrified I'll lose it or something will happen to it |
Easy...send it to Greg Black or Vladimir (Dillon Music). Tell them you want an exact copy. They do GREAT work. |
Good suggestions, except as the threads developed it's turned out that the piece described as the "holy grail" in the first post was in fact not Jason's holy grail... |
Wasn't even close, haha. |
ha - lesson learned here |
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jaysonr wrote: | a mouthpiece I didn't expect to be similar to this wound up being similar, and actually a touch better for me:
Bob Reeves Classical Series 1-1/4C |
I have one of those. It's an interesting piece, to be sure.
| jaysonr wrote: |
the throat entrance looks identical (which is where I think the magic is coming from). |
It's amazing how small a difference in the metal at that part of the mpc can make a really substantial difference in both how it plays and sounds. |
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| jaysonr wrote: |
I sincerely hope I'm getting it narrowed down. Either the Reeves 1-1/4C or the Stork 1B+26D is likely to be "the one" that I will play for quite some time. I have a planned time to get some trusted ears out front where I can play both of them and see if they prefer the sound I'm getting out of one or the other, and that should make the decision final. |
Nope.
That is an important step, sure; but so is intonation! Test these babies every which way.
And the problem with plating a mpc is the prep work. Buffing can change contours. |
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Ragnarok
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Joined: 21 Mar 2016
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I've found that the mouthpiece that works best for me is the one I practice on the most. |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Seymor B Fudd wrote: |
Month ago I borrowed a Jettone Studio C which immediately gave me more stable high register (decent Eb, occasionally E)but a tiny trifle hard to "pinpoint" the notes - yes I know, one has to get used to these things, generally after one hour or so, better accuracy; thought I´d found the Holy Grail! I felt amazingly unafflicted after hard rehearsals : |
This post illustrates an unusual tendency: the ability to play the E flat above high C and occassionally the high E but not the high F. As most trumpet players who have an E flat above high C will also be able to blow up to a high G too. Maybe higher. As the average cut-off area is first and foremost the High D. Then if he can go higher? The High G is where it stops.
Something like 98% of trumpet players can not blow above the high D. Period. Then of the fortunate few who've gotten above that? Many will find a stymie between high G and the A just above.
So without going into a long duscussion with Semor Fudd I'd simply like to suggest that when he goes for notes higher in pitch than his E flat? That he avoid closing his jaw. That and avoid pulling more of his upper lip above his upper teeth. That and he could make certain that he doesnt "smile" or pull lip flesh away from the vibrating area. The critical vibratig area is not so much the inside of the mouthpiece but the inside ofvthe the teeth.
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Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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jaysonr
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ragnarok wrote: | | I've found that the mouthpiece that works best for me is the one I practice on the most. |
I've found the one which works best for me is the one with an inner diameter that fits me. I was wearing the wrong size shoe for a long time. No wonder I always had blisters.
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Isaiah 40:8
3 John 2 |
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3636
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| jaysonr wrote: | | Ragnarok wrote: | | I've found that the mouthpiece that works best for me is the one I practice on the most. |
I've found the one which works best for me is the one with an inner diameter that fits me. I was wearing the wrong size shoe for a long time. No wonder I always had blisters. |
Jason,
I'm curious, does this piece that works for you work on every trumpet you've tried it on, or only your regular ax?
-Lionel
(not the other Lionel, I'm pleased to see another person with that name.)
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Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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jaysonr
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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Location: Conway, NC
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: | | jaysonr wrote: | | Ragnarok wrote: | | I've found that the mouthpiece that works best for me is the one I practice on the most. |
I've found the one which works best for me is the one with an inner diameter that fits me. I was wearing the wrong size shoe for a long time. No wonder I always had blisters. |
Jason,
I'm curious, does this piece that works for you work on every trumpet you've tried it on, or only your regular ax?
-Lionel
(not the other Lionel, I'm pleased to see another person with that name.) |
See this thread for more of an update.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144228&start=20
It was this piece that prompted me to send a video to Bri at GR. He showed me how this piece was totally wrong for me, and way too big. I'm now on a smaller "3" sized rim (Greg Black 3CD/25/9). I only have one horn at the moment, a Bach 37/25...I recently sold the C I had because it wasn't getting much use, and I have access to a really good Bach 229/25H whenever I need it (from a friend). That being said, this Greg Black piece works fine on both Bb and C for me. I've tended to use the same piece for both horns, anyway. Some like a more open piece on C, but it has never bothered me. Hope this helps.
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