Mouthpieces - going smaller as you develop?

[Dkjcliff]

I've read in several mouthpiece guides that the larger sizes are recommended for players with well-developed embouchures (or similar language). But I am finding that as I develop, I am able to go to increasingly smaller mouthpieces - mouthpieces that used to be difficult for me to play. I'm not talking about tiny screamer pieces. I'm talking about reducing size from an extra-deep 1.25C to 1.5C to 3C. I think it has to do with being able to play with less pressure as I get stronger, which leads to less lip intrusion. It seems obvious to me that a smaller mouthpiece is less work to play so if you can go smaller while still sounding good and maintaining flexibility, it's a good idea. But I've heard there are some who advocate playing on the largest mouthpiece you can comfortably play.

What is the basis of this advice? Is it just about getting a bigger, fuller sound? Or is there some reason related to mechanics that it is better to go larger if possible? I'm inclined to keep going smaller (within reason) if I can. But I don't want to stunt my development if playing on the larger pieces was actually good for me. As long as you're not letting bad habits creep in to respond to increased fatigue, I could see larger pieces being good for muscle development.

Thanks!
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Selmer Radial II
Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[zaferis]

There is lots of discussion and disagreement about this.. IMO it was an old school 50's & 60's move toward larger mouthpieces.. more flesh in the piece to get a broader sound. I think it went overboard - if you go too big you pass the point of a good interaction with the trumpet (you wouldn't get a good sound with a trombone mouthpiece on a trumpet - so at what point is too big).
I played on a Bach 1 1/2 for the longest time. I loved the sound in the practice room, but realized after years of wrestling with it, that it wasn't me. I downsized into the Bach 3 / Yamaha or Schilke 14 range and had marked improvement with tonal color (most notably on stage), endurance, and range.

Look up the writing of Jens Lindemann about mouthpieces.. wrote about going much bigger than a 3C was going too far.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763

I'll have to agree - too many trumpeters move into the "specialized" areas without the need, or abilities for those pieces.

Additionally, lip size (thickness / thinness) does not have a direct correlation to the mouthpiece size... It has to balance the trumpet and make a useful sound.
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[benlewis]

I spent 21 years as a Navy musician on a Bach 1X. As I aged, I realized that I was expending a lot of endurance just holding my chops together. I have had good success with a Mt. Vernon Bach 7 (no letter.) It seems that, for me, the inner rim contour is the main thing. Plus, the deep cup allows for a quite acceptable tone. I basically sound like me regardless of the equipment...

HTH

Ben

[JayKosta]

[JoeLoeffler]

Bud Herseth played a Bach straight seven up until he had his car accident. He only went to larger mouthpieces to get around scar tissue. I have heard from a number of people that his advice to most people about mouthpieces was something like “play the smallest mouthpiece you can get away with and still do the job”.

Everybody wanted to ply like Bud so they went out and bought the equipment he was using. Unfortunately, it led to people playing stuff that was far too large for them and developing inefficient playing habits.

[jondrowjf@gmail.com]

I am an amateur musician, who finally bought professional trumpets and cornets.
Have played many mouthpieces from 1 - 7. Found I am most comfortable with 3 C and 5 B Bach Megatone mouthpieces.Never liked the 6 C or 7 C mouthpieces.
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Denis Wick 4 W classic gold short shank mouthpiece
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Jupiter 9e short shank mouthpiece

[Dkjcliff]

[deleted_user_687c31b]

When I was a lot younger and first tried a shallow mouthpiece, I bottomed out almost immediately. It was maybe 5 year later or so that I finally developed the skill to be able to play them. But I did spend most of my early trumpet life playing a Bach 1 1/4 C...so that may have had something to do with it. My endurance on that mouthpiece was terrible, but I was a pretty lousy player back then too.

Of the 2 mouthpieces in my sig, the M40C is the closest to a 3C in terms of size. However, I can't say it's better or worse than the lead piece...it's just different. I mainly switch between mouthpieces for how they sound now. That being said, neither is particularly deep.

[Vin DiBona]

Just for clarification, Bud Herseth won his CSO job on a NY Bach 7B, not a straight 7. He did use a 7C on occasion, but preferred the B cup.
Orchestral players did graduate up to much larger mouthpieces because the orchestras have gotten bigger and louder. They can't have a smaller mouthpiece getting too harsh sounding at extreme volumes. And lets face it: they are very special players who have the ability to use those bigger pieces.
When I was in music school, I used a Schilke 8A4 for everything. It is not a wide diameter, but it is not a shallow bowl. It was V shaped.
I went to a 3C a few years later and tried bigger mouthpieces like the 1 1/2 C, 1 1/4C, and a GR 1HX signature. Now I used my usual GR e65M or a Hagstrom model for special occasions.
The simple rule is you find a mouthpiece that works the best for you in the majority of the situations you are in.
If it gives you good sound, good endurance, and makes it easier to play, you have the right mouthpiece.
It also helps to practice.
R. Tomasek

[Dkjcliff]

Good advice. I think I am in the midst of trying to dial in the best size for an all-around mouthpiece. I have some other specialized pieces I use for lead playing and other unique styles. But I'm hopefully getting closer. Just an expensive process.
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Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[PMonteiro]

This is going to depend on many factors and is a very personal thing. While smaller mouthpieces are generally easier to play, they can be harder at first when downsizing from a larger one. Smaller mouthpieces are easy to overpower when you're used to larger pieces.

On B flat, I worked my way up to a 1 1/2B and recently downsized to a 5C. I still play a 1 1/2B and 1 1/2C on C trumpet because the tighter blow of my C makes those pieces feel "smaller" to me. My embouchure is developed enough to light up the 1 1/2B, but that same energy caused me to overpower the 5C. I had to learn how to play more efficiently in order to get the 5C to work, and efficient playing = good playing. On the 5C my sound is now more focused with greater projection. This experience has taught me to play more efficiently on the big pieces as well.
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YTR-2320
Accord in C

[royjohn]

I have a different problem from most people. I have very thick lips, both vertically and from inside to outside. I seem to need a very large and deep piece to fit all my lip in there. And I still play on the red of my lower lip. No matter what I do, it just does not fit into the mpc. So I'm playing Bb on a Roy Roman mpc which is about 18.1mm ID. It works great and high notes are not a problem at all, in fact are easier on this larger piece than on something smaller. I recently got a historically correct Bull mpc for my 1715 Harris replica natural trumpet and had to get the 11mm deep one rather than the 8mm deep one...evidently I was bottoming out on the shallower piece.

I vote for playing what is easiest, and evidently for many people that is something smaller. Playing on the red is not the problem that I was first taught. After I stopped trying to fit all of my lower lip into the cup, things got much better. If you think you can' play on the red, look at Marsalis and Faddis.

I think the push towards larger pieces was in pursuit of darker tone, but I think ease and efficiency are better found with the ideal mpc. Then you can change the mpc depth, backbore or throat, or change your trumpet to get darker. Type IV players like Marsalis tend to have an easy top register, but tend to play bright, which is probably one of the reasons he plays a Monette.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[PMonteiro]

[royjohn]

It's interesting at TH to actually have someone agree with me [thanks!].

I have to credit Dr. Dave Wilken with helping me with my embouchure when I took several lessons with him about ten years ago. In addition to the permission to play on the red of my lower lip, he helped me to find my embouchure track (Reinhardt term) and after about five hours of lessons, the high register was no longer a problem for me. Everything just became much easier.

If I'm remembering right, you sound like a Type IV, whereas I'm some kind of Type III.

I see lots of teachers, some on these forums, making categorical statements about not playing in the red, playing 1/2-1/2, playing 1/3-2/3, etc. None of that is true and there isn't any scientific or empirical basis for it. The fact that Dr. Dave was able to diagnose my embouchure type and basically fix all my technical issues in three sessions of about 6 hours duration sold me on the Reinhardt concepts.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Dkjcliff]

I have to admit I've made comments on TH about improving my embouchure by getting the rim of my mouthpiece outside the red. But now I agree that it is not necessarily the verboten practice I once thought. Though I tend to feel that playing in the red of the upper lip, which is what I do, is a more delicate matter than the lower lip. It seems that I can apply a ton of pressure to the lower lip without cutting off the sound, but too much pressure on the upper lip will quickly cut me out. But maybe that is just because I don't actually apply that pressure to the red of the lower lip because I'm probably a 1/3 upper-2/3 lower player.

Bringing it back to mouthpiece size, I'm in the same boat as PMonteiro. No matter the size of piece I play, to get a full tone in the upper register the mouthpiece wants to move down. It feels like there's just too much meat on the upper lip to get it vibrating fast enough if the whole thing is within the mouthpiece.
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Selmer Radial II
Yamaha YHF-635T Flugelhorn
Martin Indiana Cornet

[PMonteiro]

royjohn- you're pretty spot on! Although I don't follow the Reinhardt system much I think I'm a IVA (in addition to the low placement my usual horn angle is low).

My in the red embouchure has the blessing of my community band's longtime principal trumpet, who studied with Reinhardt. He told me that the lower lip provides power (not to knock your high placement - if it works it works). You're so right that those categorical statements aren't helpful. A one-size-fits-all approach doesn't really work when every person is physically different.

Dkjcliff- I know what you mean. If my placement gets too high it feels like the upper lip is blocking something. My air wants to be directed upward (especially in the upper register), so the upper lip is probably getting in the way of the air. If you're an upstream player, this might be true for you too.

I also played saxophone for several years prior to taking up trumpet, and that got my lower lip conditioned into doing most of the work.
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YTR-2320
Accord in C

[blbaumgarn]

I agree with Zaferis and others about not having to go so big or deep. I was 13 in 1963 when my teacher had my folks pick up a Bach 1c for me which I played until around 2000 when I sold my Benge. If it was a trend to used bigger and deeper, (and I believe it was) I was fine with it and didn't use much else at all. I had a Bach 10 3/4 EW for times I was tired and played in muni band. When I started up playing again I was fortunate to read the letter or article that Jens Lindeman wrote. Sage wisdom. The horn I bought had a 3c with it and I went to a 5c and eventually a 5b after communicating with a friend my age that still plays and he needed a little deeper which was the b vs. c choice. The 5b seems to help me with lower register. Between aging, losing the lip, jaw, teeth, etc. there is no way to handle the big deep mpc. that one can produce a big sound with. Good topic.
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[MrOlds]

Way back in the last century I attended a master class conducted by Gerard Schwarz who was at the time the principal trumpet of the NY Phil.

We asked about mouthpieces. His advice was to play the smallest piece with which you could get a good sound. He said at the time he played a Bach 5B. Clearly on the smaller end of the spectrum for symphonic players. Especially at his level.

My take is that we need a clear mental image of a “good” trumpet sound for the type of music we want to play, and that we’re brutally honest with ourselves about how close we are to that sound. Then choose your equipment accordingly.

[jadickson]

Maybe what happens is that as your technique matures, you are able to play a small mouthpiece correctly and with a big sound? Because your embouchure is correct?
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Justin Dickson
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[cheiden]