MP throat size

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
I have experimented with rim contours, cup depths and back bore tapers for years, but have never ventured into the modification of enlarging the throat of the mouthpiece for fear of going too far and ruining the MP. What does going to a larger throat do to intonation and the slotting of notes? I am looking for concrete observations in regards C and piccolo trumpet modifications.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[trombahonker]

Read this artical by Scott Laskey.

[tptguy]

As you enlarge the mouthpiece throat you spread the sound. This decreases core - hence less power/projection and richness of sound. You can use a microphone to partially compensate, but most listeners (except those behind the mouthpiece) will lose interest due to the downgrade in richness/vibrance of sound even when volume is matched electronically.

Or, you can blow harder. Unfortunately, blowing harder drives the lips forward more quickly. And that's the end of endurance - very easy to hear as pitch dulls/falls flat. Both Jim Pandolfi and Jerome Callet have preached this for many years. In Jim's words, "The more you blow, the more you suck." Jerome recommends never bigger than a 27 throat. Spread mouthpiece cups and spread trumpets, of course, compound the problems - it's a package deal.

[Christian K. Peters]

Hello all,
Thanks for input. I had forgotten about the Laskey article. The drill size chart was interesting from a machinist point of view.
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Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976

[Andy Cooper]

We frequently forget the contributions of the Conn company in funding acoustical research.

You might want to take a look at the Conn "little blue book" - based on research by Jody Hall - at the Conn Loyalist.

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpcConny.html

Link fixed - thanks John M.

Then scroll down to the PDF file link. (Didn't want for force anyone into a download.)

Conn also funded research by Arthur Benade - who wrote on the adjustment and "tuning" of mouthpieces.

Where I live, trumpet players gather once a year to honor Benade for his development of the "tacet horn" - a clarinet, that with great difficulty, could but squawk a bit. Why Conn failed to put the "tacet horn" into full production is beyond me.

[John Mohan]

[iiipopes]

I agree with the above. I tried a larger throat, and lost breath support and endurance. The only thing I do now is to take a small rat tail file to the throat of a new mouthpiece just to make sure there are no burrs or glops in the plating in the throat, smoothing it out. It may make it @ 1 thou larger overall, but it does make the mouthpiece more efficient. You have to be careful to match the contour of the entire throat, not just straight up and down, so the slotting and intonation characteristics of the mouthpiece are not changed.

Curry does something similar to the throats of many of his mouthpieces, and he calls his bore a "loose 27," meaning a #27 drill bit will wobble a little bit, but a #26 definitely won't pass through.
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King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I would generally agree with Scott Laskey's observations on larger throat sizes. I think you'd find that most people using C trumpets professionally are using larger than stock throats. Piccolo is another matter; stock throat with a larger backbore isn't unusual, however.

The only way to know is to try it.
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Richard Sandals
NBO

[shofarguy]

Christian,

I thought I'd share a little different perspective on the effects of the mouthpiece throat bore. It's not a disagreement with what has been posted before. Before I write it, you should know that I have experimented with 2 different models of mouthpieces in close matching sets of three, each set using stock throat (in this case #22 and #20 for CG3 and CG Personal Kanstul mouthpieces), #19 and #16 bores. Here are my observations.

One poster above said that the larger bore "spreads" the sound. That image gives me the idea of a conical shaped change. Instead, I would say that a larger throat expands the sound. This means that, if I put the same amount of energy into each mouthpiece, the tighter one will produce a more compact, higher energy sound than the larger one. It's not unlike putting the same amount of heat calories into 8 ounces of water and 16 ounces. The 8 ounce container of water will register a higher heat.

If I want the 16 ounces of water to be as hot as the 8 ounces, I need to add energy to that container. Its the same with the larger throat. I can do this two ways with the trumpet. I can blow harder, which is not productive, or I can add resonance to my embouchure, which takes specific exercise, but is very productive, IMO.

So, why would I want a larger throated mouthpiece? I can produce a given volume of sound with a less piercing core. Chris Botti talks about this type of tone on the DVD that accompanied his Italia album. He wanted to show the listening public that trumpet didn't have to be harsh. I understand he plays on a Bach 3 with a very large throat bore.

On the other hand, studio players who mostly play into individual microphones sometimes gravitate toward a bore even smaller than a #27. This allows them to produce the edgy sound that "gets on tape" well at a volume that avoids bleed-over into other microphones.

On the subject of C and piccolo trumpets, I have no real experience, but perhaps this last observation about Bb trumpets will apply in some fashion. I find that it is possible to adjust the amount of energy/air flow at the mouthpiece to balance two different trumpets with different bell tapers. For example, a current Burbank CG with a #22 throat mouthpiece plays with a similar airflow as my Wild Thing with a #26 throat.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[John Mohan]

If you're short on time, just skip to my last sentence.

In general I prefer larger than stock throat sizes.

When I was on my Orchestral Mouthpiece Safari in 2004 I quickly settled on the Mt Vernon 1 (now 1X) rim. I bought a bunch of Bach 1X, 1B, 1C and 1-1/4C mouthpieces, had the rims from the 1X's cut off into screw-rims and had the underparts from the others cutoff. I then spent several months mixing and matching until I found three that worked well and covered the spectrum of tonalities. They were the 1X Rim / 1X Underpart, 1X Rim / 1B Underpart, 1X Rim / 1-1/4C Underpart.

Concerning the topic of this thread, in the cases of the 1X and 1B underparts, I had a variety of throats and backbores to choose from, and when the dust had settled, in both cases, the particular 1X and 1B underparts I liked best, and sounded best to several critical listeners, both had #22 Throats and #24 (large) Symphonic Backbores. The ones with smaller throats and/or other backbores just weren't as good. I only had one 1-1/4C underpart and it came with a #22 Throat and #24 Backbore. Though I wasn't able to compare it to other 1-1/4C underparts with other throat/backbore combinations, as well as it worked for me, I can't imagine a different throat and/or backbore size on it being better. Note that since that Safari, I've found an even better mouthpiece for my legit playing. Just before he left Kanstul, James R. New created a mouthpiece for me that digitally matched the rim of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C with the cup of a Bach 3B, with.... a #22 Throat and the #24 Backbore. I have a little more control with it than with the slightly bigger 1X rimmed mouthpieces, and according to my head critical listener, it sounds even more orchestral than my 1X/1B setup. I've digressed...

The copy of Arturo Sandoval's Mt Vernon 3C I do most of my playing on has a #24 throat and I like the sound and feel of it. I have a second mouthpiece from James R. New (his S5M-S) that is identical to the Arturo piece in every way except it has the stock #27 throat. From High C upward the one with the #27 throat is a little brighter and stronger and feels a little more secure to play. But anything below around High C sounds bigger and feels better when I use the one with the #24 throat.

But on the other hand: When I'm on a more intense show I usually play a Reeves 43C or 43M. They just make the job easier and I sound stronger up top on them without sacrificing lower note warmth. My first 43C and 43M mouthpieces came with the stock #26 and #27 throats, respectively. Knowing that I always gravitate toward bigger throats, I called Bob up one day and ordered two mouthpieces from him, a 43C but with a #24 Throat and a 43M but with a #26 throat. Bob told me I wouldn't like them. I doubled down by ordering them in gold plate and with my initials on them. Bob did what I asked and charged me full price for them. They suck. Both feel squirrelly and counter-intuitively, feel stuffy. Ten or eleven years later they still look brand new. Anyone want to buy them?

So, in summary, in certain situations I've found that larger throats are better, but in others, particularly I think with the amazing Bob Reeves designs, what comes with the mouthpiece is best.

Cheers,

John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[Andy Cooper]

Just to show that it depends - one of my favorite combinations for piccolo trumpet used a Tottle P backbore. It's throat size, and the size of all of the stock Tottles, was #28. Been a while since I have used Tottles - but I believe the P backbore worked well with C trumpet too. Again - with a #28 throat.

[GordonH]

Whilst this is all true for a standard Bb trumpet there are times when a larger throat is appropriate and does not adversely affect sound or endurance. Two examples would be cornet and rotary trumpet where the different blow benefits from a slightly more open mouthpiece. Cornet mouthpieces are typically 14 to 20 throat sizes. Rotary mouthpieces are around a 24.

Just thought I would add that into the mix. I wonder if the old 'Bach used to hand out cutting broaches with mouthpieces' anecdote that we hear was to do with people playing on tighter instruments, or maybe a hangover from his early career playing cornet and rotary trumpet?
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Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[mikasaren]

I tend to use backbore to reach the sound I want. I use always 4.1mm throat.

Examples: I mostly use 5C cup, and for all around BB work I use 6*, but for jazz combos ja solo I use 9 or 10 backbores with that cup, or even 5B cup, depending on my feeling and acoustics.

If I have something special,,like a screaming part in Bigband I then pick a slightly shallower 5D cup,,but larger 7* throat. I get that sharp sound and more leeway in bending the notes.

Smokey ballads, even 12 backbore...but this depends on the trumpet I am using. Not all horns sound good as as others with such a large backbore.
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Selmer TTM, Yamaha YTR-932ML, Selmer 365 EL, Selmer 900TT, Selmer G/F piccolo, Wedge 5EC, 5CC, 5BC with #20 bore, Courtois 159r fluegel with WT mpc