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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | | trumpet.sanity wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | | trumpet.sanity wrote: | | By the way, Horntrader has his Burbank CG mispriced for a year or more now, I bet he isn't selling many at $3350, when I think it should be $2350. |
No, the CG model is more because of the Claude Gordon license. |
Confirmed: Horntrader's price is in error. I wonder how many sales he lost over that typo.
Shofarguy, might want to double check your sources before speaking on somebody's behalf next time.
Anyway, I sure hope to see these great trumpets in the hands of more players. I think the $1000 price adjustment might make the CG more appealing. |
Shofarguy has a price list given him by Michael Thomas and it shows an up-charge for the CG model. This was briefly talked about in a 1 on 1 conversation with Michael Thomas while researching the article referenced above. The one thing Shofarguy didn't do was go again to Horntrader.com to recheck Steve's posted price.
If Michael has since changed his pricing, I would not know, since it's been a few months since I've had contact with him.
Last point: My article was researched with, reviewed and approved by Michael Thomas and his long-time business partners. |
So, does Michaels updated price list show an up charge for $1000 or a CG compared to other Burbanks?
I doubt it.
I never said anything about your "article" or your "brainstorming'" projects, or super-cozy relationships with these guys.
I stated I thought there was an error on horntrader's website, he has the CG priced at $3350 and I thought it should be $2350. Extra $100 maybe for the lighter bell and extra work in build.
You attempted to correct me, talking about "Claude Gordon licensing" alluding you are some kind of insider and had pricing knowledge I was unaware of and the $1000 up charge was correct. I took that at face value, since I've seen all your posts about hounding Zig, Flip, and I guess Michael Thomas relentlessly. But still had my doubts, because of common sense and pricing structures I've seen in the past.
But after just one email, and my lack of insider info, or grandiose articles or self proclaimed omnipotent knower of all things Kanstul, turns out the price is $2350. The price advertised is in error.
So as I said, you might want to double check your facts before speaking on somebody's behalf. |
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ALaschiver
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Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 639
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: Pricing and Royalty |
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It should be noted..manufacturers producing a "Claude Gordon" model do pay a royalty and enter an agreement, with the estate. This I know to be true.
A |
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Pricing and Royalty |
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| ALaschiver wrote: | It should be noted..manufacturers producing a "Claude Gordon" model do pay a royalty and enter an agreement, with the estate. This I know to be true.
A |
All that may be true.
None of that has anything to do with a typo I had pointed out on a website that started this hijacked run on this thread.
If you say there is a royalty to be paid, I say ok!! I believe you. I don't particularly care.
And for the use of common sense and rational thinking, then through an email communication, "I know to be true" that there is no way in hell, that the fee is $1000 per horn.  |
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1jazzyalex
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Joined: 13 Jun 2016
Posts: 569
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: |
Those web sites, definitely primitive. But better than nothing right? |
Bingo. Much better than NAPBIRP or whatever the organization for brass repairmen is called; their web site doesn't exist.
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Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Man, did this thread take a hard left turn into a ditch or what?😳
No big deal, just an observation.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Brad361 wrote: | Man, did this thread take a hard left turn into a ditch or what?😳
No big deal, just an observation.
Brad |
I shouldn't let such trivial things bother me. But when I say the sky is blue, and am told, no it's green, my common sense spidy-senses go into overdrive.
That said, I apologize for my zeal. I blame Putin for the computer and pricing errors. |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | | Brad361 wrote: | Man, did this thread take a hard left turn into a ditch or what?😳
No big deal, just an observation.
Brad |
I shouldn't let such trivial things bother me. But when I say the sky is blue, and am told, no it's green, my common sense spidy-senses go into overdrive.
That said, I apologize for my zeal. I blame Putin for the computer and pricing errors. |
No problem here, it's certainly not the first thread that has taken a turn, I'm sure I've been at least partially responsible for that happening myself.
Yep, has to be Putin, dang Russkies.....😉
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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1jazzyalex
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Joined: 13 Jun 2016
Posts: 569
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Web site for Burbank's |
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| ALaschiver wrote: | As web site design costs are quite small and "build your own" templates are in the market...why don't some of you guys volunteer to build him a site...easy. Just "do it"
Alan |
Because web sites are really freaking hard. I know, I've tried 'em. I can do a blog, but a web site? Yikes! 
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Yamaha 8335LA with Blessing 3C, 5C, Schilke 11A4A |
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Danbassin
Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Idyllwild, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | | shofarguy wrote: | | trumpet.sanity wrote: | | By the way, Horntrader has his Burbank CG mispriced for a year or more now, I bet he isn't selling many at $3350, when I think it should be $2350. |
No, the CG model is more because of the Claude Gordon license. |
Confirmed: Horntrader's price is in error. I wonder how many sales he lost over that typo.
Shofarguy, might want to double check your sources before speaking on somebody's behalf next time.
Anyway, I sure hope to see these great trumpets in the hands of more players. I think the $1000 price adjustment might make the CG more appealing. |
Not to jump-in here at the last minute and simultaneously beat a dead horse and speak business of recently-departed master-craftsmen, but I recall reading on a recent thread here a Kanstul quote to CG's widow to the effect of, "'C.G.' could stand for lots of things."
I share this hearsay only to put an end to speculation about licensing. As the horns are neither called "BENGE" nor "Claude Gordon" there is very little reason to believe any licensing arrangements whatsoever are in place. This is usually NOT the policy of firms that do reproductions in 'everything' but name.
The recent thread also asked questions about Kanstul "M" series ("Monette") "CG" etcetcetc. (**they, of course, are careful to never use trademarks**) mouthpieces, which do not pay any 'royalties' 'licensing' or otherwise to the people who designed them. I find it particularly amusing that the "M Series" webpage almost copies descriptions for each size word-for-word from Monette...sigh!
Let's not view business practices through such rose-colored glasses. Just note that every time I read of someone confusing an "M Series" Kanstul with a Monette mouthpiece, I die a little inside. And, yes, I've played both. They're similarly-sized, and that's about that, not the same thing.
Sorry about the aside, back to horns, and back to practicing.
Stay hungry for knowledge, my friends!
-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Whatever folks think about Kanstul's fabrications I wish them nothing but success. I'm sure there are lots of changes ongoing since Zig's passing.
I hope the next generation of the Kanstul's are able to keep the machine moving. For an American, family run business to still have the success Kanstul has is almost unheard of in today's age.
So much competition from overseas, and US conglomerates absorbing all the smaller manufacturers, it's a real anomaly for Kanstul to still carve out such a strong slice of the pie.
The Burbank line won't make or break the Kanstul business, but I think if they were being put in more players hands, and being sold by dealers, they'd be cranking out a lot more metal. I still contend those are some of the best designs ever! |
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trumpet.sanity
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Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: |
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And if I were in charge (which I'm obviously not) I'd bring back those Besson designs they were making in the 80s and 90s.
Instead of using Brevette and Meha, maybe call the Grand Prix, or some other Besson-ish names as reference.
I don't know if you guys ever played those, but they were killer horns as well!! |
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Danbassin
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Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 460
Location: Idyllwild, CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| trumpet.sanity wrote: | And if I were in charge (which I'm obviously not) I'd bring back those Besson designs they were making in the 80s and 90s.
Instead of using Brevette and Meha, maybe call the Grand Prix, or some other Besson-ish names as reference.
I don't know if you guys ever played those, but they were killer horns as well!! |
My first C trumpet was a Kanstul-Besson Meha - with the exchangeable leadpipes. As a teenager, I got to meet Zig Kanstul and showed him the horn. He immediately went for the valves, feeling their response under his fingers, and I still remember the little smile he gave...which I interpreted as both satisfaction in his excellent craftsmanship AND my keeping the horn in good working order.
Also +1 to what you said above: We have some remarkable assets in this country in the form of Kanstul and Getzen - two family-owned companies whose reliable work and continued respect within the marketplace are something to take pride in - and to advocate for! I would much rather set-up a student or colleague with one of their excellent offerings than hastily mass-produced 'budget' instruments which have flooded the market. Additionally, the fact that their best horns rarely come up for resale and frequently command strong secondhand prices (think Honda, perhaps!) speak to the satisfaction they bring their owners.
And - of course - deep respect is due to our smaller manufacturers, from my friends at Monette, to the wonderful Larsons, Jaegers, Marcinkiewiczs, etcetcetc and so-on!
Best,
-DB
_________________
Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Piccolo;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:22 am Post subject: Re: Pricing and Royalty |
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| ALaschiver wrote: | It should be noted..manufacturers producing a "Claude Gordon" model do pay a royalty and enter an agreement, with the estate. This I know to be true.
A |
And how do you know "this to be true"? What estate? Owned by whom?
Claude died and everything went to his second wife Patricia. Patricia died and everything then went to her son from her first marriage (ironically, not really even a relative of Claude's). My understanding is that upon the stepson's death everything was donated to the Big Bear Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall (Claude and Patricia were both Jehovah's Witnesses). There was an auction a few years ago selling the rest of Claude's stuff including the original tapes of some of Claude teaching sessions and other memorabilia.
I have called the Big Bear Jehovah's Witnesses Kingdom Hall repeatedly for YEARS getting nothing but an answering machine and never receiving a return phone call. I want to make available for everybody the Claude Gordon Masterclass video that was originally produced by the Selmer Corporation that Claude eventually negotiated the rights for. It seems to me that nobody at this point is the holder of any rights to the Estate. Perhaps the Jehovah's Witnesses are the holders - but if they are they seem to have no interest in it.
Please enlighten me (via PM if you don't want to go public with the info) if there's something you know that I don't.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:59 am Post subject: |
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So much controversy
Bottom line from me, I'm glad Benge is still alive through the Burbank line. Also I'm glad Michael Thomas is making them available, and Horntrader is advertising (albeit with wrong pricing) and promoting the horns.
I believe if marketed better there would be more of a demand and better sales. But it's not up to me. I just hope the Burbanks don't get lost in obscurity.
If my obsession continues, which it probably will, I'd love to get a medium bore 2X with a super light bell built at some point!! And I'd love to give Michael Thomas and Kanstul the business. |
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7011
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:51 am Post subject: |
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For Clarification:
There is no license fee. I was mistaken.
I just spoke with Michael Thomas on the phone. The $3250.00 price for the CG is MSRP. The rest of the line has an MSRP of $3100.00. The extra uncharge for the CG is there because of the lightweight bell, which is more difficult to make and has a higher rate of failure during fabrication. It also requires that the tail be sized to .464" and cut a little differently, which represents further manufacturing steps compared to the others. Michael's MSRP list is required for his dealers overseas. He has no US dealer network (though Steve Dillard has an arrangement of some kind with him), but sells directly to customers here. Pricing upon inquiry.
We did talk about doing a comparison article with the current Burbank 3X+ and Michael's 1963ish Burbank Benge 3X+. So, that should be coming in the next few months.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5677
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Is the current Burbank line of trumpets the same as what Kanstul was making back in the mid to late 1990s? A friend of mine had a Kanstul/Burbank trumpet that looked and played like a Benge - this was back when Kanstul trumpets were running a good 3rd or more less than the Bachs and Yamahas. This was at a point in time where Kanstul wasn't yet as well known, so their instruments, although excellent, weren't commanding that kind of price yet.
Thinking back, my friend was always pretty shrewd in the purchases he made - he did his homework, and invariably wound up with a lesser priced product that was every bit as good as the more expensive name-brand stuff. Another example is that he got a Tuxedo triple trumpet gig bag in black cordura, and side by side with the cordura bags from Reunion Blues, I'd have picked the Tuxedo bag.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7011
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | Is the current Burbank line of trumpets the same as what Kanstul was making back in the mid to late 1990s? A friend of mine had a Kanstul/Burbank trumpet that looked and played like a Benge - this was back when Kanstul trumpets were running a good 3rd or more less than the Bachs and Yamahas. This was at a point in time where Kanstul wasn't yet as well known, so their instruments, although excellent, weren't commanding that kind of price yet.
Thinking back, my friend was always pretty shrewd in the purchases he made - he did his homework, and invariably wound up with a lesser priced product that was every bit as good as the more expensive name-brand stuff. Another example is that he got a Tuxedo triple trumpet gig bag in black cordura, and side by side with the cordura bags from Reunion Blues, I'd have picked the Tuxedo bag. |
Yes. Kanstul started the Burbank line shortly after UMI moved Benge out to Ohio in about 1982 (+/-). There have been non-Benge style Burbank horns along the way, but the traditional Benge designs have always been and continue to be the heart of the brand. Now, just the Bb trumpets are listed in the Burbank catalog, but Michael is willing to resurrect other past instruments as special orders. He is also willing to consider custom specifications.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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trumpet.sanity
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016
Posts: 763
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | Is the current Burbank line of trumpets the same as what Kanstul was making back in the mid to late 1990s? A friend of mine had a Kanstul/Burbank trumpet that looked and played like a Benge - this was back when Kanstul trumpets were running a good 3rd or more less than the Bachs and Yamahas. This was at a point in time where Kanstul wasn't yet as well known, so their instruments, although excellent, weren't commanding that kind of price yet.
Thinking back, my friend was always pretty shrewd in the purchases he made - he did his homework, and invariably wound up with a lesser priced product that was every bit as good as the more expensive name-brand stuff. Another example is that he got a Tuxedo triple trumpet gig bag in black cordura, and side by side with the cordura bags from Reunion Blues, I'd have picked the Tuxedo bag. |
Yep. Same horns, still built by Kanstul, still distributed solely by Michael Thomas. Still poorly advertised sadly. Great price point for a professional horn, made with the same parts and materials and specs as the Benge tooling Zig bought from King as the company was sold in the early 80s.
And they are willing to custom build anything you like. Want to use copper or bronze? Want thinner or heavier gauge brass? Underslung third valve slide like the old Bessons and some Benges? Want a MEDIUM BORE?!?! They'll do any and all of that.
Want correct pricing? Call Michael Thomas, as Horntraders pricing is questionable and inaccurate.
Want facts about "licensing" or details about build or design? I'd check with the horse's mouth instead of self appointed surrogates on Internet forums.  |
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trumpet.sanity
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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The Burbank Benge referenced by trumpet.sanity on eBay looks to be in great shape. I messaged the seller about the model. He responded that it's a model 5X. It's $2,250 or best offer. In top condition a Burbank Benge 5X is probably a $1500 horn.
There's also an ML Chicago Benge on eBay now. The horn looks to be all original, in good physical shape (except for lacquer) and the bell engraving appears clear and unbuffed. The bid is currently at $810.00 after 18 bids. That's very cheap. 3 days to go.
There's another ML Chicago Benge on eBay with a "Buy It Now" of $6,999.99 (which is a ridiculous price).
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