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fblues Regular Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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Hi,
I bought an Olds recording cornet, expecting mellower sound compared to my Bach trumpet. It is a gorgeous and solid instrument. However, the thing is that for me the sound difference is minimal. So, I am currently planning to try Olds L12 flugelhorn which I found from CL.
I am just curious about other peoples' opinion. Many people also talk about the factor of mouthpieces as well. Also, since I am just a beginning player, it is possible I could not fully draw the "potential" of the cornet. But, I guess I need to say goodbye to it if I choose to go with the flugelhorn. |
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pinstriper Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2013 Posts: 340 Location: Portlandia, OR
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Those are some high-speed rigs for a beginner.
Cornets and trumpet sound can overlap pretty closely based on a lot of things, and mouthpiece and playing approach/technique are a major variability of course.
Are you sure you have a clear enough concept of the sound you are looking for/expecting ? You haven't expressed what that is. _________________ ~'77 DEG Dynasty II Soprano Bugle in G
'13 Chinese POS "Hawk" branded Flugel
'59 Olds Ambassador Cornet
'51 Olds Super
'69 Olds Studio
'40 Olds Special Cornet, Military Issued |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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It's pretty easy to make most cornets sound like a trumpet. You will notice a much bigger difference in the flugelhorn. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Anthony Barrington New Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Listen to some British brass bands. I also agree with pinstriper, the mouthpiece and the way you play the horn will make or break the sound. It's all about concept. Of course, playing the flugel will change the sound. |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2309 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Another point, in addition to the previously mentioned, is that it may sound like the tone difference is slight in practice until you put that instrument in a big room, performance hall, outdoors in an ensemble. You may find the tone and projection quite different.
IMO many don't completely adjust to the cornet - mouthpiece is important but the approach, more importantly, is different. If you play the cornet with the same approach/blow/aggression as you do with your trumpet, it won't sound much different. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | mouthpiece is important but the approach, more importantly, is different. If you play the cornet with the same approach/blow/aggression as you do with your trumpet, it won't sound much different. |
Bingo.
Famous flugelhorn player Guido Basso said something similar about the flugelhorn too:
Guido Basso wrote: | A lot of players don't have enough time to become intimate with the [flugelhorn]. They'll grab it and blow the hell out of it, like the trumpet. Well, when you do that it ends up sounding something like a tubby trumpet. |
_________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi |
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fblues Regular Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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pinstriper wrote: | Those are some high-speed rigs for a beginner.
Are you sure you have a clear enough concept of the sound you are looking for/expecting ? You haven't expressed what that is. |
In fact, I have not had a definite tone quality in my mind.
I wanted to seek a mellower tone after watching "I remember Clifford" by Roy Hargrove on Youtube.
But, it might not be my eventual goal.
I guess I should think about it further.
zaferis wrote: | IMO many don't completely adjust to the cornet - mouthpiece is important but the approach, more importantly, is different. If you play the cornet with the same approach/blow/aggression as you do with your trumpet, it won't sound much different. |
At the same time, I admit that I was treating the cornet in the same way
I played my trumpet with the same size mouthpiece. (Bach 5C)
But, it seems that the approach itself should be different as well.
It might be a better idea for me to stick to the trumpet until I achieve my own color but I actually committed to buy the flugelhorn today...
Thank you for all the inputs anyway. I am learning a lot here. |
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BeboppinFool Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
Joined: 28 Dec 2001 Posts: 6437 Location: AVL|NC|USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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fblues wrote: | I bought an Olds recording cornet, expecting mellower sound compared to my Bach trumpet. It is a gorgeous and solid instrument. However, the thing is that for me the sound difference is minimal. So, I am currently planning to try Olds L12 flugelhorn which I found from CL.
I am just curious about other peoples' opinion. Many people also talk about the factor of mouthpieces as well. Also, since I am just a beginning player, it is possible I could not fully draw the "potential" of the cornet. But, I guess I need to say goodbye to it if I choose to go with the flugelhorn. |
Try playing your trumpet and your cornet daily, in equal amounts (or as equal as you can get). I have been doing this for years, and over time they both feel "normal" to play, yet they both feel distinctly different from each other. Actually, I have been doing this with trumpet, bass trumpet, cornet and flugelhorn (don't tell anybody) nearly every day for a very, very long time. My experience has been that the chops will "intuitively" know how to instantly adapt to whichever horn is set upon them.
By the way, I recently acquired another LA Olds Recording cornet (had one years ago that I let go, like a big dummy), and that is one sweet and responsive cornet!
I would not say goodbye to this cornet ever again.
Keep us posted! _________________ Puttin’ On The Ritz |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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BeboppinFool wrote: |
I recently acquired another LA Olds Recording cornet (had one years ago that I let go, like a big dummy), and that is one sweet and responsive cornet!
I would not say goodbye to this cornet ever again.
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My first horn, and the first instrument I ever played well, was an Olds Recording cornet. Made in Fullerton, circa '56, with the offset middle valve. Dad played his senior recital on it, so it was "the old horn around the house nobody was playing." I had NO idea what a great horn I was playing, or how much it helped me get off to a good start! |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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There is a lot to be said for having trumpet, cornet and flugel, so keep them all if you can afford to. I find that daily practice on trumpet is most important, because it is most demanding. I find cornet easier to play, and flugel easiest to play as long as I'm willing to slow down on the flugel.
To really get the cornet sound, you may find you want to get a "real" cornet mouthpiece. We already know you play a Bach 5, and many of us around here hold Mark Curry in high regard as being able to consistently produce excellent specimens that are Bach-compatible. Last I knew he made at least 3 different offerings of genuine cornet mouthpieces, each with identical rim but different cup. The deepest cup will give the most authentic cornet sound, but be more demanding on the chops. This is useful for days when you don't have enough time to practice, but still want to get in a workout.
Also, playing out of the Arban's book is different; it truly was written for cornet! |
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fblues Regular Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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BeboppinFool wrote: |
Try playing your trumpet and your cornet daily, in equal amounts (or as equal as you can get). I have been doing this for years, and over time they both feel "normal" to play, yet they both feel distinctly different from each other. Actually, I have been doing this with trumpet, bass trumpet, cornet and flugelhorn (don't tell anybody) nearly every day for a very, very long time. My experience has been that the chops will "intuitively" know how to instantly adapt to whichever horn is set upon them.
By the way, I recently acquired another LA Olds Recording cornet (had one years ago that I let go, like a big dummy), and that is one sweet and responsive cornet!
I would not say goodbye to this cornet ever again.
Keep us posted! |
Thank you for the nice advice.
I have not thought about that kind of approach
because it feels that it could cause some confusions.
But, maybe my concern is just for short term.
Still, I am not sure I have enough time to practice THREE instruments.
But, I can start from two instruments!
razeontherock wrote: |
There is a lot to be said for having trumpet, cornet and flugel, so keep them all if you can afford to. I find that daily practice on trumpet is most important, because it is most demanding. I find cornet easier to play, and flugel easiest to play as long as I'm willing to slow down on the flugel.
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I have actually changed my mind, following your suggestion to keep Olds Recording cornet.
I hope I could appreciate its real voice some day.
Quote: | To really get the cornet sound, you may find you want to get a "real" cornet mouthpiece. We already know you play a Bach 5, and many of us around here hold Mark Curry in high regard as being able to consistently produce excellent specimens that are Bach-compatible. Last I knew he made at least 3 different offerings of genuine cornet mouthpieces, each with identical rim but different cup. The deepest cup will give the most authentic cornet sound, but be more demanding on the chops. This is useful for days when you don't have enough time to practice, but still want to get in a workout. |
I was thinking about Bobby Shew for flugelhorn but had no idea for the cornet yet.
My only experience with Curry Mpc is 50M for trumpet but it was unsuccessful since it felt too shallow compared to Bach 5C.
Will try to find some information about Curry mouthpieces for cornet.
Thanks for the kind suggestions! |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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About the difference between trumpet and cornet.
https://www.robbstewart.com/difference-between-trumpet-and-cornet
Useful quotes:
"Using a Bach 7C mouthpiece on each, there is not much more difference than this between a Bach 37 trumpet and a Bach 37 cornet."
"We know that the mouthpiece design is very important to the playing characteristics of a cornet or trumpet. Those that have experimented know and the mouthpiece makers all tell us that the size and shape of the mouthpiece cup can have a relatively large affect on the timbre and other characteristics of the instrument. Most cornet mouthpieces made before 1920 have more or less funnel or “V” shaped cups as compared to the bowl or “C” shaped cups in the trumpet mouthpieces." _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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trompette229 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2016 Posts: 203
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Try a Curry BBC cornet mouthpiece in your approx rim size and you'll hear a big difference in sound between your trumpet and cornet. The Curry is very playable but will be a great place to start. |
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ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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As the original owner of a '51 Recording cornet, I used to have to try to blend in with a section made up mostly of Strads and King trumpets. My mouthpiece was a factory-modified Olds turned down to the approximate cup size of a Bach 12 (and stamped "B12") - no problem. It made a fine-sounding trumpet, actually better-sounding than those trumpets in the band.
These days, the same horn still give me great pleasure although I mostly play it with a Curry 3BBC - and it sounds very much like a good cornet with that change and a bit of concentration on my part. The only change I'd make is if I could ever get around to having an Olds backbore made with threads to match a Tottle 3A top. That ought to be just about perfect for all-around use. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls.... |
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trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Today I have played all three in a Recital. To sum up the differences:
The Flugel, a Yamaha 631 (rose brass bell)l with a Wick 2 mouthpiece has a rich mellow sound.
The Cornet, a Bach XL 184 with heavy caps and a Wick 2 copy has a sweet 'covered ' sound.
The Trumpet, a Heckel Bb rotary has a bright delicate sound with lots of resonance. |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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fblues wrote: | Hi,
I bought an Olds recording cornet, expecting mellower sound compared to my Bach trumpet. It is a gorgeous and solid instrument. However, the thing is that for me the sound difference is minimal. So, I am currently planning to try Olds L12 flugelhorn which I found from CL.
I am just curious about other peoples' opinion. Many people also talk about the factor of mouthpieces as well. Also, since I am just a beginning player, it is possible I could not fully draw the "potential" of the cornet. But, I guess I need to say goodbye to it if I choose to go with the flugelhorn. |
Hi
As a newer player, I really think that keeping to the same rim would be advantageous. I would suggest the Curry 5C for trumpet, Curry 5BBC for cornet and 5FL for flugel in I believe the Bach taper for an Olds Flugel.
Personally I don't practice the flugel but switch between trumpet and cornet, devoting a similar time to each. Since I switch between both trumpet and cornet depending on the repertoire in the community light orchestra in which I play, I often practice on both trumpet and cornet together. I personally warm up on cornet (but that is just my preference), then play the same exercise firstly on the cornet then on the trumpet. As has already been said on this thread, regular practise on each has enabled me to be able to automatically adjust to the required approach for each, and to the individual playing characteristics of my particular trumpet and cornet, to the extent that I can confidentially play one after several days of rehearsal on the other.
I do however stick to the same rim.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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fblues Regular Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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Louise Finch wrote: |
Hi
As a newer player, I really think that keeping to the same rim would be advantageous. I would suggest the Curry 5C for trumpet, Curry 5BBC for cornet and 5FL for flugel in I believe the Bach taper for an Olds Flugel.
Personally I don't practice the flugel but switch between trumpet and cornet, devoting a similar time to each. Since I switch between both trumpet and cornet depending on the repertoire in the community light orchestra in which I play, I often practice on both trumpet and cornet together. I personally warm up on cornet (but that is just my preference), then play the same exercise firstly on the cornet then on the trumpet. As has already been said on this thread, regular practise on each has enabled me to be able to automatically adjust to the required approach for each, and to the individual playing characteristics of my particular trumpet and cornet, to the extent that I can confidentially play one after several days of rehearsal on the other.
I do however stick to the same rim.
All the best
Lou |
Thank you for the inputs. I believe you mentioned a very important part especially for the beginner like me.
I switched to Bobby Shew Jazz from Bach 5C for the trumpet.
So, I also ordered Bobby Shew Flugelhorn mpc for the flugelhorn as I could find a cheap one on Ebay.
The thing is that there is no cornet mpc for this Bobby Shew series.
Do you think I Can find one among Curry mpc which is similar to Bobby Shew series? |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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fblues wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: |
Hi
As a newer player, I really think that keeping to the same rim would be advantageous. I would suggest the Curry 5C for trumpet, Curry 5BBC for cornet and 5FL for flugel in I believe the Bach taper for an Olds Flugel.
Personally I don't practice the flugel but switch between trumpet and cornet, devoting a similar time to each. Since I switch between both trumpet and cornet depending on the repertoire in the community light orchestra in which I play, I often practice on both trumpet and cornet together. I personally warm up on cornet (but that is just my preference), then play the same exercise firstly on the cornet then on the trumpet. As has already been said on this thread, regular practise on each has enabled me to be able to automatically adjust to the required approach for each, and to the individual playing characteristics of my particular trumpet and cornet, to the extent that I can confidentially play one after several days of rehearsal on the other.
I do however stick to the same rim.
All the best
Lou |
Thank you for the inputs.
Hi flblues
You are very welcome.
I believe you mentioned a very important part especially for the beginner like me.
I switched to Bobby Shew Jazz from Bach 5C for the trumpet.
So, I also ordered Bobby Shew Flugelhorn mpc for the flugelhorn as I could find a cheap one on Ebay.
Are you talking about the Yamaha Bobby Shew Mouthpieces? If so, I hate to mention this, but the Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel horn mouthpiece has a 16.54mm diameter like the Yamaha Shew Lead, rather than the 16.85mm diameter of the Yamaha Shew Jazz. Presumably they are however easy to switch between since Bobby Shew does it, and have compatible rims.
The thing is that there is no cornet mpc for this Bobby Shew series.
Do you think I Can find one among Curry mpc which is similar to Bobby Shew series?
The Bobby Shew Jazz trumpet mouthpiece is similar to a Bach 3C. I would therefore suggest the Curry 3. diameter as being nearest in terms of cup diameter, although I believe that the Bobby Shew Jazz has a rounder rim than a Bach 3C or Curry 3C..
Take Care
Lou
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_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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fblues Regular Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2017 Posts: 88 Location: Bethlehem, PA
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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Louise Finch wrote: |
Are you talking about the Yamaha Bobby Shew Mouthpieces? If so, I hate to mention this, but the Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel horn mouthpiece has a 16.54mm diameter like the Yamaha Shew Lead, rather than the 16.85mm diameter of the Yamaha Shew Jazz. Presumably they are however easy to switch between since Bobby Shew does it, and have compatible rims.
The thing is that there is no cornet mpc for this Bobby Shew series.
Do you think I Can find one among Curry mpc which is similar to Bobby Shew series?
The Bobby Shew Jazz trumpet mouthpiece is similar to a Bach 3C. I would therefore suggest the Curry 3. diameter as being nearest in terms of cup diameter, although I believe that the Bobby Shew Jazz has a rounder rim than a Bach 3C or Curry 3C..
Take Care
Lou
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I see. I should have been more considerate when I ordered the Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugelhorn mpc. I did not know it has different rim diameter from Shew Jazz mpc.
As you mentioned, many people highly rate Curry mpcs.
Will definitely try your earlier suggestion, C/BBC/FL for the trumpet, cornet and flugelhorn.
Thank you again! |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5461 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:06 am Post subject: Re: Sound difference between cornet and flugelhorn |
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fblues wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: |
Are you talking about the Yamaha Bobby Shew Mouthpieces? If so, I hate to mention this, but the Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel horn mouthpiece has a 16.54mm diameter like the Yamaha Shew Lead, rather than the 16.85mm diameter of the Yamaha Shew Jazz. Presumably they are however easy to switch between since Bobby Shew does it, and have compatible rims.
The thing is that there is no cornet mpc for this Bobby Shew series.
Do you think I Can find one among Curry mpc which is similar to Bobby Shew series?
The Bobby Shew Jazz trumpet mouthpiece is similar to a Bach 3C. I would therefore suggest the Curry 3. diameter as being nearest in terms of cup diameter, although I believe that the Bobby Shew Jazz has a rounder rim than a Bach 3C or Curry 3C..
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I see. I should have been more considerate when I ordered the Yamaha Bobby Shew Flugelhorn mpc. I did not know it has different rim diameter from Shew Jazz mpc.
Hi fblues
No problem. You weren't to know. I've simply been round these forums for a while, and this is the sort of thing that you pick up over time. I had to look up the specs to quote the cup diameters, but I remembered that the Bobby Shew flugel had his Lead rather than Jazz rim.
As you mentioned, many people highly rate Curry mpcs.
Yes, they do. They are reasonably priced, very consistent and maintain the same rim for all the different cups in the size, unlike Bach who have a different rim from the 3C to the 3B to the 3 etc.
They also allow you to have the same rim for trumpet, cornet and flugel.
Will definitely try your earlier suggestion, C/BBC/FL for the trumpet, cornet and flugelhorn.
I personally believe that this will give you greater consistency.
Thank you again!
You are very welcome.
Take Care
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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