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Tyler Alexander Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 Posts: 27 Location: West Sacramento, California
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: Mouthpiece Pressure problem |
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I've noticed when I play I use an excess amount of Pressure. I been trying to reduce the amount of pressure by slowly removing the mouthpiece from my face when I practice since late December. However this caused my lips to still extend into the mouthpiece and didn't seem to solve anything. Playing a F on and above the staff in the Staff requires me to "pinch" my lips together. When I practice lip slurs with the first valve it takes a lot of effort just to slur to an F, and it feels really uncomfortable.
How do you practice Lip Slurs? Do you play ppp, ascend to Forte on the highest note, then descend back to ppp? How long do you lip slur a day?
I've been messing with a Bach Megatone 1-1/2 C MP
- i feel like it has a darker sound than the conn 4 and 11B4 that I have used.
I wanted to point this out because Im not sure if the mouthpiece change forced me to use too much pressure.
Last edited by Tyler Alexander on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: |
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you are sure to get a lot of different responses about this issue. I can relate it only to my own similar problem when i started my comeback. My issue and maybe yours too was a too open lip setting. My lips were apart when starting a note like say C under the staff, as i ascended i would require more pressure to help close my lip setting, eventually things would shut off entirely at high C above the staff.
The things that has helped me the most are doing the Bill Adam lead pipe buzz every single day to start my playing, you simply can't buzz the lead pipe if you start with your lips open. learning to close the lips and blow air through them to start my sound was huge towards my development. Doing a variation of the so-called Adam Routine has helped with this as well. I play from F# below low C to F# above high C with basically the same pressure.
I'm sure i use a little more pressure as i ascend, but it has gotten to the point that i'm not aware of any excess arm pressure. All that being said, i try to have equal pressure on both top and bottom lips. hope this helps.
regards,
tom
PS - If the mouthpiece diameter and cup size is too big for you it could possibly force you to pull harder to help close your lip opening. Again, this is based only on my own experience, there are tons of people in here who know a lot more than me about this stuff.
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Tyler Alexander Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 Posts: 27 Location: West Sacramento, California
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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KRELL1960 wrote: | you are sure to get a lot of different responses about this issue. I can relate it only to my own similar problem when i started my comeback. My issue and maybe yours too was a too open lip setting. My lips were apart when starting a note like say C under the staff, as i ascended i would require more pressure to help close my lip setting, eventually things would shut off entirely at high C above the staff.
The things that has helped me the most are doing the Bill Adam lead pipe buzz every single day to start my playing, you simply can't buzz the lead pipe if you start with your lips open. learning to close the lips and blow air through them to start my sound was huge towards my development. Doing a variation of the so-called Adam Routine has helped with this as well. I play from F# below low C to F# above high C with basically the same pressure.
I'm sure i use a little more pressure as i ascend, but it has gotten to the point that i'm not aware of any excess arm pressure. All that being said, i try to have equal pressure on both top and bottom lips. hope this helps.
regards,
tom
PS - If the mouthpiece diameter and cup size is too big for you it could possibly force you to pull harder to help close your lip opening. Again, this is based only on my own experience, there are tons of people in here who know a lot more than me about this stuff.
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I forgot to say I have been practicing the Lead pipe buzz since Wednesday. When I buzz the pitch changes when I play a d on the staff. Is this always supposed to happen? Or am I using too much pressure?
Last edited by Tyler Alexander on Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpet.sanity Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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What helped me get it was not slurs and arpeggios
But articulating. Hundreds of times over and over. With scales, or tunes, or chromatics just below and slightly above the end of my range and trouble area.
I mean when we play music we have to tongue, sustain notes, play melodies, not just slurs, and trills. So why not practice that?
When I articulate and play passages, I don't use as much air, nor pressure. It's not a strength thing, more a muscle memory and getting the knack of it ...for me.
This reduced pressure for me, increased endurance and expanded my range.
Also moving to smaller hardware made everything easier. I love me some resistance!!! |
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trumpet.sanity Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 Posts: 763
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Also for me buzzing, lead pipe buzzing, long tones, and anything off the horn, not making music, was a waste of time. |
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GeorgeB Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 Posts: 1063 Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I play with as little pressure as possible, but I have a protruding lower lip and if I play with too little pressure the upper lips loses its seal, so I have to use the pressure necessary to get the job done, and this means the lower lip takes the brunt of the pressure. I was using a Curry 50TC that I really loved but the bite was just too sharp and it did a job on my lower lip and I almost ended up destroying my embouchure. I can't use it anymore.
Back in 1953 when I first started playing the trumpet the music prof at the conservatory where I took lessons recommended a Bach 10 1/2C and I used it for 12 years until I gave up the horn in 1965. So I used my old 10 1/2C for my comeback last spring but wanted to try other sizes . After trying a 7C, 3C and the Curry I realized that music prof from way back knew what he was talking about. So now I am using a 10 1/2CW that has a wider, more comfortable rim and that is what is working for me now.
The moral of this story is that you should get a teacher who will match you to the right mouthpiece. _________________ GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of ways to deal with this issue, but you have to realize that this is a habit that has been somewhat ingrained - it's not going to go away quickly.
Due to the kind of music I mostly gig, there are times where I get to a point where I'm using too much mouthpiece pressure. For me, the way I "fix" this is to take it back to basics. I start on G in the staff, and play long tones, and actively think about reducing pressure. When I first start this, as soon as I start to reduce pressure, my sound will break into a double-buzz. It's kind of a see-saw - reduce pressure until double buzz, add it back until the sound clears up, reduce again, and so on.
Eventually I'll get to a point where the G is clear without much pressure. Then I start to work descending chromatically, working those pitches as long tones in the same way - for some reason, E wants to break up too.
Once the sound has cleared up, I start adding in articulation until that's working right - the tonguing and soft playing both work together to bring focus to your chops.
All of this is done over the period of several days, but keep in mind that for me, I'm working to bring things back into focus to what it was - I'm not trying to build it from scratch - I did that during my formative years as a player. It's likely going to take you a good bit of time to get that going - weeks at the least - and it's something you should try to incorporate into your daily practice.
Good luck and keep us posted. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:57 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, you don't get rid of mouthpiece pressure by trying to play with less pressure. You get rid of pressure by adding enough support so that you don't need to press any more to get the note out.
That means 1) breath support, 2) proper posture, 3) relaxed throat, neck, and shoulders, 4) properly warmed up embouchure and tongue.
If you are properly supporting your notes with an energized airstream, then the pressure will disappear on its own. Concentrating on the pressure is counterproductive. Concentrate instead in adding everything you need to play in such a way that pressure is totally unnecessary.
Your mileage may vary! I hope this is helpful. Good luck. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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dstdenis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Hi Tyler. When I read your post about excessive pressure and discomfort, the first thing that came to mind is that you're probably trying to play lip slurs in a higher register than your embouchure development is capable of yet.
If so, you'd do better if you work on lip slurs and general embouchure development exercises within the range where you can play correctly and comfortably. Gradually extend the range upward with good form, listening for a good sound.
I don't know which lip slur exercises you are using (there are so many), but suppose you have the Bai-Lin book, and you've found that the first set, which top out at C in the staff, are comfortable for you, the second set, which top out at E at the top of the staff, are doable but kind of difficult, and maybe you have these troubles with the third set, which go up to G at the top of the staff.
If that were the case, then you'd make better progress working on sets 1 and 2 until they're in great shape, then gradually start adding in a few exercises at a time from group 3. If you begin to experience these troubles, then back down to easier exercises that you can play properly.
Edited to add: yes, the mouthpiece change might be part of the cause. Maybe. Seems you've gone to a wider rim, which will be harder work, and a heavier blank, which might give less feedback and cause you to blow harder, tiring you out as well. Not saying whether you should or should not play that mouthpiece, because I haven't seen you play, but this could contribute to the symptoms you've described. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Last edited by dstdenis on Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Arjuna Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 240 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Pressure problem |
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Try a 10 1/2 C Bach to go to a more closed setting with the chops.
Don't worry about pressure it will take care of itself when you are practicing and playing correctly.
Bill Adam leadpipe buzzing first thing everyday for 3 min.
Caruso's 6 note exercise at the end of your 1st practice session and 1 more time at the end of your last practice session of the day.
Use the "O" sound on the inhalation this keeps everything open and helps to produce a rich sonorous sound.
On the exhalation use a "Hoo" sound for the middle register, a "Haa" sound for the lower register and a "Hee" sound for the upper register.
Irons book for flexibility.
Tyler Alexander wrote: | I've noticed when I play I use an excess amount of Pressure. I been trying to reduce the amount of pressure by slowly removing the mouthpiece from my face when I practice since late December. However this caused my lips to still extend into the mouthpiece and didn't seem to solve anything. Playing a F on and above the staff in the Staff requires me to "pinch" my lips together. When I practice lip slurs with the first valve it takes a lot of effort just to slur to an F, and it feels really uncomfortable.
How do you practice Lip Slurs? Do you play ppp, ascend to Forte on the highest note, then descend back to ppp? How long do you lip slur a day?
Here's the mouthpiece I've been messing with .
ZUINIUBI Trumpet Mouthpiece 3C Size for Yamaha or Bach Conn King Trumpet(Silver) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G59IXWG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_QDTWybYJBJYDC
- i feel like it has a darker sound than the conn 4 and 11B4 that I have used.
I wanted to point this out because Im not sure if the mouthpiece change forced me to use too much pressure. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5675 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Turkle wrote: | In my experience, you don't get rid of mouthpiece pressure by trying to play with less pressure. You get rid of pressure by adding enough support so that you don't need to press any more to get the note out. |
It works for me. Maybe it's one of those things where by pulling the mouthpiece away, one of the unintended consequences is that I start to support more, but I've never really had an issue with lack of proper support. For me, pressure creeps in because I'm playing loud, amplified, and in my upper register. Yes, it's a bad habit, but I'm 46 years old and this has been the way I've done it for several decades, so I deal with it in various ways.
I haven't had to use my above method for a while because I work to incorporate the right kind of practice to prevent it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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comebackcornet Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2017 Posts: 55
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Pressure problem |
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Arjuna wrote: |
Caruso's 6 note exercise at the end of your 1st practice session and 1 more time at the end of your last practice session of the day. |
Arjuna, could you explain why you recommend the 6 notes at the end of the session(?). I do a 6 note exercise most days at the beginning of one of my sessions (I spend the session on Flexus material) and I am therefore curious about this.
Thanks. |
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Tyler Alexander Regular Member
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 Posts: 27 Location: West Sacramento, California
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Pressure problem |
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comebackcornet wrote: | Arjuna wrote: |
Caruso's 6 note exercise at the end of your 1st practice session and 1 more time at the end of your last practice session of the day. |
Arjuna, could you explain why you recommend the 6 notes at the end of the session(?). I do a 6 note exercise most days at the beginning of one of my sessions (I spend the session on Flexus material) and I am therefore curious about this.
Thanks. |
How do I play these 6 notes to optimize my practicing? Is there an article that explains the Caruso technique in depth? |
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Jerry Freedman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2476 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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There is a forum on TrumpetHerald dealing with Caruso. At the top there is a collection of articles by Charly Raymond who was an early, if not the first moderator of the forum. Check it out |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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When I started playing again I used the Embouchure Builder by Lowell Little. I started by playing the first two or three exercises and added 1 exercise every 2 or three weeks until I was playing the first 10. If you rest as much as you play that should take 15 to 20 minutes. I moved on to Irons when I started taking lessons. My instructor started me with number 5 and 6 and added an exercise every couple of weeks. I think the key is to play them slowly at first with a comfortable volume. Start changing dynamics once you can play them effortlessly.
Pressure (for me at least) is a sign that I am trying to extend myself beyond my current capabilities. Getting rid of it is like breaking any other habit. I think Clarke 1 was the biggest help for me. I would play Clarke as assigned by my instructor, but only up the point where I started to stain, then I would stop. I didn't have any playing commitments so I could easily stop when I needed and not worry. If you have playing commitments or school band then it may take you longer to break the habit. |
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Mr.ozinsky New Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2017 Posts: 5 Location: Cheyenne, WY
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Pressure problem |
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Tyler Alexander wrote: | I've noticed when I play I use an excess amount of Pressure. I been trying to reduce the amount of pressure by slowly removing the mouthpiece from my face when I practice since late December. However this caused my lips to still extend into the mouthpiece and didn't seem to solve anything. Playing a F on and above the staff in the Staff requires me to "pinch" my lips together. When I practice lip slurs with the first valve it takes a lot of effort just to slur to an F, and it feels really uncomfortable.
How do you practice Lip Slurs? Do you play ppp, ascend to Forte on the highest note, then descend back to ppp? How long do you lip slur a day?
Here's the mouthpiece I've been messing with .
ZUINIUBI Trumpet Mouthpiece 3C Size for Yamaha or Bach Conn King Trumpet(Silver) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G59IXWG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_QDTWybYJBJYDC
- i feel like it has a darker sound than the conn 4 and 11B4 that I have used.
I wanted to point this out because Im not sure if the mouthpiece change forced me to use too much pressure. |
"The sound floats on the breath" This helps me alot. I also think of bringing my face to the horn vs. bringing the horn to my face when I play.The sound is created by energizing the standing wave of air molecules found inside the tubing of the horn, not by the buzzing of the lips. THe lips buzz as a by product of energizing the air molecules. Try submerging the bell of your horn in a bucket of water and playing. The goal is to achieve a "rolling boil" as the bubbles out of your bell are produced when you play. This helps to "Blow through" the back pressure of the instrument and letting your air do the work for you, not your chops. _________________ Andy Mrozinsky
Trumpet instructor Laramie County CC
Colorado Wind Ensemble
Cheyenne Symphony |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7769 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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If you are serious about trying to reduce pressure on the embouchure, follow Turkle's advice. And to that end, I'd have you play very, very softly, concentrating on a very clear and focussed tone. Play slowly until you learn to control the aperture (With the ear and sound, NOT by feel) and it works in sync with the tongue and wind stream. I can't stress enough that you must attempt to play with a very clear and focussed tone, playing very softly all around the registers.
If you are having trouble with "lip slurs" it may be that you are trying to move around the slots by changing your lips. The key to this is actually the movement of the tongue through the syllables from AW/OH for lowest through OO/EW in the middle range, EE for high and EESH or ISS for the highest. Read the text in Colin's Advanced Lip Flex Studies (complete version) and John Daniel's Special Studies book. The material from Pops is also quite pertinent, and you can do some Skype lessons with him if you wish. Good luck. |
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ATrumpetBrony Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2015 Posts: 152 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Swartz wrote: | If you are serious about trying to reduce pressure on the embouchure, follow Turkle's advice. And to that end, I'd have you play very, very softly, concentrating on a very clear and focussed tone. Play slowly until you learn to control the aperture (With the ear and sound, NOT by feel) and it works in sync with the tongue and wind stream. I can't stress enough that you must attempt to play with a very clear and focussed tone, playing very softly all around the registers.
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This is something I've thought about a DARNED LOT.
When I try to play quietly, particularly in my middle register (middle C to G or A above the staff), as absolutely *quietly* as I can, my pitch turns into a double buzz. Is this something to combat? Or just keep doing quiet playing? I know when doing stuff in the high register it's a bit easier because the air is moving so quickly. Not sure _________________ ATB
It's not what you play...
It's HOW you play |
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Dan O'Donnell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 2287
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Using your left hand, hold the horn at the bottom of the valve casing...do not use the pinkie ring with your right hand. Give it a try and let us know if it helped. _________________ God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell
"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3 |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7769 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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ATrumpetBrony wrote: | Craig Swartz wrote: | If you are serious about trying to reduce pressure on the embouchure, follow Turkle's advice. And to that end, I'd have you play very, very softly, concentrating on a very clear and focussed tone. Play slowly until you learn to control the aperture (With the ear and sound, NOT by feel) and it works in sync with the tongue and wind stream. I can't stress enough that you must attempt to play with a very clear and focussed tone, playing very softly all around the registers.
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This is something I've thought about a DARNED LOT.
When I try to play quietly, particularly in my middle register (middle C to G or A above the staff), as absolutely *quietly* as I can, my pitch turns into a double buzz. Is this something to combat? Or just keep doing quiet playing? I know when doing stuff in the high register it's a bit easier because the air is moving so quickly. Not sure | Double "buzz"? Quit actually "buzzing" your lips. They pulse. Relax a bit, perhaps pull the chin down just a bit, and increase the wind a bit. Get John Daniel's book... |
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