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HERMOKIWI
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 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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On at least some of the Big Bop Nouveau albums Maynard recorded his part after the band had recorded their parts (sometimes in a different studio). This was told to me by a member of Big Bop Nouveau. Not that Maynard's ability was lacking in any way. His live performances were awesome. He just wanted to be certain that he was satisfied with the overall recording and put out what he felt was everyone's best effort.
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New.Vintage
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furcifer
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| New.Vintage wrote: |
I much preferred Roger Ingram's playing in Woody's band and Maynard's compared to Harry Connick's band. Roger took some 8va liberties and hangover long high notes that I never understood. |
I just loved it. All but flawless and yes, over the top - as it should be, IMO. When I first heard that, in fact, I realized that I had grown rather annoyed with what I considered somewhat "apologetic" lead performances at a lot of collegiate jazz fests I had been attending around then. By now, we've heard how it's done in the way that the audience is most thrilled by. So I don't agree stylistically anymore with those who purposely back away from that because... I don't know? Maybe they're embarrassed to hang over and kiss off a note bigger than hell just because they don't quite have Roger or Maynard's range, sizzle or what? Maybe they think that kind of style is a cliche now and they're somehow above that and too cool for school? It leaves me wanting, and their playing comes off almost as if they're trying to hide in the section or "save chops". Well, I say B.S. - if people come to hear me on lead book, I'm going to have more fun than anybody, let them freekin' hear what I've got and sell it all the way to the parking lot. Some might not dig all that, but I've found that most audiences will, so I'll roll with Roger until the wheels fall off on that stuff, LOL
| New.Vintage wrote: |
And the MF records of the 70s and early 80s were HEAVILY overdubbed and juiced up with effects. His earlier and later albums were much more raw. |
Yes, I should clarify; my intention was to refer to the earlier and later, as well as the presence of "out-of-tune" or even squeaked/missed notes not being dubbed out - as the shoe fits, right? For one instance, "Body and Soul" was the first album where I was surprised to notice hearing him actually a bit flat on a note or two. (Of course, I neither have nor have heard every MF album... Remiss, I know!)
| New.Vintage wrote: |
Back to Lin. He is an anomaly in the big band recordings that just can't be explained. He recorded with just about everybody, and those recordings are preserved for everybody to listen to. I'm fascinated that Buddy let those records get cut with some of the bizarre trumpet playing by Lin.
He must know where the bodies are buried. |
With Buddy, I would NOT be surprised! LOL! 
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New.Vintage
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Clearly some folks love or less-than-love Lin's playing
Whoever made this website, and page clearly has more malice than just knocking his style of lead trumpeting:
http://www.linbiviano.com/
Yikes |
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Biviano has always been an interesting lead player |
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| Lionel wrote: |
Anyway one of my favorite Biviano leads is his work on Buddy Rich's vinyl 33 rpm record "Stick It". From about 1972 to 73 or so. And if you want to know what your trumpet will start sounding like as you break through the typical barrier our chops usually have? Listen to Biviano's lead on the whole chart called "Space Shuttle". Esp towards the end. |
Just listened to this version, because it was recorded in '72, specifically looks like it was taken from an LP, and has (Long Version) right in the title. I don't hear anything like you're describing. Were you thinking of something else?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAgEzheF_1g |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Biviano has always been an interesting lead player |
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| New.Vintage wrote: | Maynard chipped more notes, overshot and under shot, more targeted notes, played loose with the rules regarding pitch, and could slot a high A less than 50% of the attempts I heard him.
But I think much of that is overlooked or forgiven because of his night after night thrilling shows for decades. |
I haven't heard a version of "Maynard Ferguson" that I like as well as Maynard's and it's because his has a rough-edged, fiery, swinging for the fence quality - it's there on every performance of it I've heard by Maynard. Eric Miyashiro for example plays it solid but he almost sounds like he's playing an Arban's exercise.
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New.Vintage
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Biviano has always been an interesting lead player |
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| Robert P wrote: | | New.Vintage wrote: | Maynard chipped more notes, overshot and under shot, more targeted notes, played loose with the rules regarding pitch, and could slot a high A less than 50% of the attempts I heard him.
But I think much of that is overlooked or forgiven because of his night after night thrilling shows for decades. |
I haven't heard a version of "Maynard Ferguson" that I like as well as Maynard's and it's because his has a rough-edged, fiery, swinging for the fence quality - it's there on every performance of it I've heard by Maynard. Eric Miyashiro for example plays it solid but he almost sounds like he's playing an Arban's exercise. |
Well, as they say:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sqcLjcSloXs |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| New.Vintage wrote: |
Lin Biviano rarely plays in a way pleasing to the listener. While "leading" his trumpet section, he plays like a soloist instead of as a section leader. I understand "lead player's prerogative", maybe adding a turn, or doit, or shake, or scoop, or so,e other ornament. But Lin was unpredictable and inconsistent on almost every recording I've heard.
When I hear a Buddy Rich recording I get excited, when I realize Lin Biviano is on the record, I cringe, and feel disappointed. |
Did Buddy express dissatisfaction with Lin's playing? If Lin stayed on his band presumably it was because Buddy liked what he heard and wanted him there?
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New.Vintage
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert P wrote: | | New.Vintage wrote: |
Lin Biviano rarely plays in a way pleasing to the listener. While "leading" his trumpet section, he plays like a soloist instead of as a section leader. I understand "lead player's prerogative", maybe adding a turn, or doit, or shake, or scoop, or so,e other ornament. But Lin was unpredictable and inconsistent on almost every recording I've heard.
When I hear a Buddy Rich recording I get excited, when I realize Lin Biviano is on the record, I cringe, and feel disappointed. |
Did Buddy express dissatisfaction with Lin's playing? If Lin stayed on his band presumably it was because Buddy liked what he heard and wanted him there? |
Buddy ran is band how he wanted. If he liked him, that's great. 
Does Buddy keeping Lin on his band unequivocally mean Lin was a lead trumpet player I need to like, or aspire to play like? Nope.
Like I said earlier...I think Lin knew where some of bodies were buried.
I can't think of another well recorded lead trumpeter that has clammed notes as often as Lin, played as wickedly out of tune, or taken liberties with octaves or questionable harmonically placed high notes....of which he has about a 65% chance of successfully playing. Just so sloppy.
And his triple register a small percentage of people rave about...in the big picture of a big band section player, honestly, who cares. It sounds so out of place, and shrill. Why do it, I'll never understand.
But his resume looks better than mine, and he is on those records and did those tour dates , not me. So what do I know. Just my subjective opinion. When I hear a recording with Lin on lead, I cringe, other folks opinions obviously differ |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| New.Vintage wrote: | | I can't think of another well recorded lead trumpeter that has clammed notes as often as Lin, played as wickedly out of tune, or taken liberties with octaves or questionable harmonically placed high notes....of which he has about a 65% chance of successfully playing. Just so sloppy. |
Can you point to something available on Youtube that you feel is a good example of the shortcomings in his lead playing?
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Really love his playing on the "Very Alive At Ronnie Scott's" recording. Definitely a favorite Buddy Rich recording. I believe that Lin teaches at Berkley in Boston now. There is a recorded interview out there somewhere that Jake Sommers did. I wanted to do a web page for him on my website; however, could never connect with him.
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RogerIngram
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: |
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[quote=I much preferred Roger Ingram's playing in Woody's band and Maynard's compared to Harry Connick's band. Roger took some 8va liberties and hangover long high notes that I never understood.[/quote]
I took no liberties, all of that was written. That's what Harry wanted. Harry likes high notes. Ask any of the other players who were on the band. Regarding hanging over: he wanted that too. For instance, we were in the studio one day and he had written a high A for the last note. I cut it off clean with the rhythm section. He made us do the entire take over again because he wanted me to hang it over. In those days he did no overdubs. Yup, the entire take over again. I was there for 20 years. He was the boss. I did what I was told. Enough said. 
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cheiden
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I much preferred Roger Ingram's playing in Woody's band and Maynard's compared to Harry Connick's band. Roger took some 8va liberties and hangover long high notes that I never understood. |
| RogerIngram wrote: | | I took no liberties, all of that was written. That's what Harry wanted. Harry likes high notes. Ask any of the other players who were on the band. Regarding hanging over: he wanted that too. For instance, we were in the studio one day and he had written a high A for the last note. I cut it off clean with the rhythm section. He made us do the entire take over again because he wanted me to hang it over. In those days he did no overdubs. Yup, the entire take over again. I was there for 20 years. He was the boss. I did what I was told. Enough said. |
I love Harry's recordings, especially the brassy ones. Thanks Roger for all the brilliant playing!
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Last edited by cheiden on Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Saw Roger in Columbus, Ohio with Harry Connick at an outdoor venue that no longer exist. The concert was killer and I remember Roger hanging over on a high Bb on one tune. Was the "Come By Me" set (tour). I was simply amazed. First time I had heard Roger Ingram live. Got to hear him again with the Woody Herman Orchestra led by Frank Tiberi at the time in a small FireHouse Bar setting as well.
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mm55
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| RussellDDixon wrote: | | Really love his playing on the "Very Alive At Ronnie Scott's" recording. Definitely a favorite Buddy Rich recording. I believe that Lin teaches at Berkley in Boston now. There is a recorded interview out there somewhere that Jake Sommers did. I wanted to do a web page for him on my website; however, could never connect with him. |
Yes, Lin Biviano is currently on the faculty at Berklee College of Music.
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RogerIngram
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trickg
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| RogerIngram wrote: | | New.Vintage wrote: | | I much preferred Roger Ingram's playing in Woody's band and Maynard's compared to Harry Connick's band. Roger took some 8va liberties and hangover long high notes that I never understood. |
I took no liberties, all of that was written. That's what Harry wanted. Harry likes high notes. Ask any of the other players who were on the band. Regarding hanging over: he wanted that too. For instance, we were in the studio one day and he had written a high A for the last note. I cut it off clean with the rhythm section. He made us do the entire take over again because he wanted me to hang it over. In those days he did no overdubs. Yup, the entire take over again. I was there for 20 years. He was the boss. I did what I was told. Enough said. |
That moment when you realize that Roger Ingram reads this board and posts to it on occasion. 
By the way, I've been playing the 1600I going on two years now. Man-alive, the way that horn slots has seriously helped me be a better player in the party band gigging I do, and the sound just rips - it's thick and brassy, and it cuts really well in the mix. So thanks for your influence in bringing this horn to the market at an affordable price - I got mine as a barely used demo with a deal I couldn't refuse.
Getting back to the subject of Lin Biviano, I think it's likely similar to what Roger just said - when your livelihood depends upon keeping the gig, you do what you're told, and although there's a certain amount of personal flair in there - probably what helped Lin get those jobs - ultimately you have to play what and how you are asked.
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New.Vintage
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| RogerIngram wrote: | | I was the one doing the hanging over on that gig and even I didn't like it. Don't encourage it. |
^^That quote is priceless
Those Woody Herman and Maynard records with you playing lead, are some of my favorites, Roger.
And having a leader like Harry Connick, letting the lead player go wild...and even encouraging it?!?! That's a rarity for sure.
I remember in 94 or 95 Harry Connick was scheduled to give a clinic to the jazz department and put on a concert.
The clinic was awesome, Harry played with the 1 o'clock rhythm section, did some solo stuff in every style, gave some great history, played a dozen transcribed solos from sax payers, bass players, trumpeters, piano players....
Great sense of humor, one kid asked " Harry, what do you think of the avant-garde and free jazz??" Harry replied " Free jazz?? That means no cover charge right?? ..next question"
Then the concert unfortunately was the "Funk Band" not the big band, but was still a fun show.
All the girls were interested in his movie career and what kind of hair el he used, but Harry was nice to everybody, and was a great hang. Good memories |
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| New.Vintage wrote: | Clearly some folks love or less-than-love Lin's playing
Whoever made this website, and page clearly has more malice than just knocking his style of lead trumpeting:
http://www.linbiviano.com/
Yikes |
Not to mention some historical inaccuracies regarding his time with Chase.
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RussellDDixon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RogerIngram wrote: | | I was the one doing the hanging over on that gig and even I didn't like it. Don't encourage it. |
Errrrrr Roger ... but I do like those hang overs at times just like Harry.
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