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SaxoTrump
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 270
Location: Eastern Europe
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 Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:21 am Post subject: Vintage Bach 7C with suspicious signs of use |
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Can you please help me with the analysis of unusual wear pattern on the Bach cornet mouthpiece shank?
Here is a picture:
It comes with a late 60-s Holton cornet and I'm more worried about the cornet receiver rather than the MP itself.
Oh, and I can't see it before I buy it. The seller is not a trumpet player and is of no help at all.
To me it looks like the MP was unused for quite awhile judging by its tarnished appearance however the shank suggests like it was recently heavily "lapped in" by... a less conscious "trumpet user"?
Please note a bright bevelled ring at the very end of shank.
If the MP was normally inserted into the receiver even a dozen of times the tarnish wouldn't come off so easily and so evidently, would it?
It's all my educated guesses of course. |
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 474
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| The mouthpiece was probably sitting in the cornet receiver for a long time. I have a mouthpiece that looks very similar, it was stuck in the horn when I bought it. |
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SaxoTrump
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Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 270
Location: Eastern Europe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | | The mouthpiece was probably sitting in the cornet receiver for a long time. I have a mouthpiece that looks very similar, it was stuck in the horn when I bought it. |
That sounds like an option and I thought about it also but the interior of the case, the impression in velvet lining suggests the MP was seated in the case's nest. |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Vintage Bach 7C with suspicious signs of use |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | Can you please help me with the analysis of unusual wear pattern on the Bach cornet mouthpiece shank?
Here is a picture:
It comes with a late 60-s Holton cornet and I'm more worried about the cornet receiver rather than the MP itself.
Oh, and I can't see it before I buy it. The seller is not a trumpet player and is of no help at all.
To me it looks like the MP was unused for quite awhile judging by its tarnished appearance however the shank suggests like it was recently heavily "lapped in" by... a less conscious "trumpet user"?
Please note a bright bevelled ring at the very end of shank.
If the MP was normally inserted into the receiver even a dozen of times the tarnish wouldn't come off so easily and so evidently, would it?
It's all my educated guesses of course. |
Hi SaxoTrump
It may not be the case with this particular mouthpiece, but my Kanstul B10 cornet backbore has a second ring on the end of the shank, and I have an idea what caused it.
My Yamaha Xeno cornet does not have a gap, but there is a flush ring of solder where the leadpipe meets the mouthpiece receiver. My Yamaha 16E short shank cornet mouthpiece, a Yamaha 14B4 long shank mouthpiece (which I got in trade from someone who wanted my Bach 1 1/2C cornet mouthpiece, and have never played), and Kanstul B series cornet backbores, all insert the same distance in my Yamaha Xeno cornet, which I presume from this ring on my B10 cornet backbore, is below this solder ring, and that this has caused the ring on the end of the mouthpiece shank.
My cornet plays well like this, so it is of no concern to me.
Looking at the mouthpiece in your photo, the ring around the end of the shank may have the same cause.
Regarding the shank not being so tarnished, maybe like as already has been suggested, this mouthpiece has been left in a cornet. Maybe another mouthpiece was stored in the case.
Or maybe someone has turned down the shank to fit a particular cornet.
I'm guessing that you are worried whether this mouthpiece shank could have damaged the mouthpiece receiver of the cornet.
I simply don't know, sorry, but would guess that it is probably ok, as the mouthpiece doesn't look particularly bent or out of round, although it is hard to tell, as there is not a photo of the end of the shank. I'm not sure of the valve of a 1960s Holton cornet, but if it is as low as my 1960s Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet, I wouldn't have thought that this on its own, would be too much to worry about.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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SaxoTrump
Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 270
Location: Eastern Europe
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Vintage Bach 7C with suspicious signs of use |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | ... I'm not sure of the valve of a 1960s Holton cornet, but if it is as low as my 1960s Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet, I wouldn't have thought that this on its own, would be too much to worry about.
Take Care
Lou |
Thanks Lou for a detailed breakdown. Of course it's not a $1000 or even $700 horn but we always want to know in advance that we don't buy a piece of useless junk while the subject actually may not look like the one.
I once received a low priced but good trumpet - 1950's Roth Reynolds (they can easily be used as a pro instrument in certain settings) and on receipt I found that one of the valve pistons was dinged which made the otherwise decent horn practically useless.
So in this particular case I'd want to be sure someone didn't use exsessive lapping of the shank in the receiver as this would make _regular_ MP seating impossible.
What I mean is that there is a chance that this Holton cornet uses an older receiver that's not compatible with such a MP as this Bach.
I already read somewhere on one of 2 foums that someone had this exact problem: the previous owner basically reamed out the receiver with an incorrect MP shank and then the dedicated Holton MP (when he tried one) didn't fit - was loose fitting. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Vintage Bach 7C with suspicious signs of use |
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| SaxoTrump wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | ... I'm not sure of the valve of a 1960s Holton cornet, but if it is as low as my 1960s Boosey and Hawkes Imperial cornet, I wouldn't have thought that this on its own, would be too much to worry about.
Take Care
Lou |
Thanks Lou for a detailed breakdown.
Hi SaxoTrump
You are very welcome.
Of course it's not a $1000 or even $700 horn but we always want to know in advance that we don't buy a piece of useless junk while the subject actually may not look like the one.
I once received a low priced but good trumpet - 1950's Roth Reynolds (they can easily be used as a pro instrument in certain settings) and on receipt I found that one of the valve pistons was dinged which made the otherwise decent horn practically useless.
So in this particular case I'd want to be sure someone didn't use exsessive lapping of the shank in the receiver as this would make _regular_ MP seating impossible.
What I mean is that there is a chance that this Holton cornet uses an older receiver that's not compatible with such a MP as this Bach.
I already read somewhere on one of 2 foums that someone had this exact problem: the previous owner basically reamed out the receiver with an incorrect MP shank and then the dedicated Holton MP (when he tried one) didn't fit - was loose fitting. |
I fully understand all that you say. I'm however not at all familiar with Holton cornets or their mouthpiece receivers, so cannot really help further, other than my original suggestion that I believe that the ring around the end of the shank is owing to the mouthpiece having inserted past the point where the receiver joins the leadpipe of a cornet with no actual gap. I don't know for certain, but I believe that this is the reason for this ring occurring on a B10 cornet backbore which I bought new and have only used on my Yamaha Xeno cornet. A Yamaha 16E cornet mouthpiece inserts the same in my cornet, so I don't worry. should it be like this, I simply don't know, only that it plays well so is of no concern to me.
Regarding this Holton cornet, it looks like the Bach mouthpiece inserts a long way. I'm very sorry, but I just don't know how this compares to how a Holton cornet mouthpiece from the same era should insert, or whether using this Bach mouthpiece on a Holton cornet could have reamed out the receiver.
I'm not sure how easy or cost effective it would be to replace the receiver if necessary, or whether it would even be worth it, as I honestly have no idea of the value of this cornet.
I'm very sorry that I cannot be of any further help.
Good luck with this.
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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