Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:15 am Post subject:
Quote:
that was delightfully over my head. my approach to playing is <not> to need the enormous capacity of meeting commercial demands.
i would like to beat my way to a G over high C in a typical anglo saxon manner, not use the upper register in playing otherwise, and work on general relaxation with pops' guidance, getting some respectable endurance for fun home playing.
i can only imagine what you guys go through. you will never get credit for the subtlety and athleticism of the ordeal.
It was probably over my head too man;-) Actually, I get some credit from other jazz cats with the high note stuff..especially when I do it on flugel..I guess they're not used to hearing it on flugel..I mean I wouldn't do it without the credit..cha!
But really, I wanted to say about Pops..His stuff about relaxation and tensionless playing is very similar to Lynn's approach.. Have you checked out Lynn's instructional vid yet? These two teachings compliment each other very well. And Lynn and Pops are both really great cats..Real + energy. They're always happy to answer questions, provide further advice, etc.
All the best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Last edited by ljazztrm on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:20 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:19 am Post subject:
Speaking of taking credit for high notes.. One of my favorites.. Check out around 2:50 - "Hey cats, did you all hear that..double C!" Hahaha!! Love it!
_________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 632 Location: Boston, MA
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:33 am Post subject:
I think the key to getting the most from lip slurs is learning to blow across the break without tensing up, not unlike a clarinet. I have found that being able to play lip slurs is not a matter of lip strength, but ear and air, and learning to play from your core. In the end they are really just flow studies. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com
Thanks Kevin :) Anyone else have an answer to my question? _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:34 am Post subject:
Bill - if you've been doing Colin for awhile, I'd recommend a very good routine that I like to use that was posted by a TH user named 'Fast Freddy'. I would do it every other day to enforce the concept of using the air/tongue and getting away from the 'chops'.
Quote:
If you're well on your way, then you might want to work groups 20-22 & 25-26. I personally work Group 20 in two different ways. One is to play the exercise as written. The other is to omit the rests and slur from the low tone to the high. My goal being to relax, think of the higher tone as simply being further away (like blowing an airstream to a piece of paper 5' away etc., and further for the higher tones), and lip compression. You can really feel the movement in these exercises when performed properly.
_________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:35 am Post subject:
Quote:
I think the key to getting the most from lip slurs is learning to blow across the break without tensing up, not unlike a clarinet. I have found that being able to play lip slurs is not a matter of lip strength, but ear and air, and learning to play from your core. In the end they are really just flow studies.
+1 Yeah man, definitely agree.. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Thanks Kevin Anyone else have an answer to my question?
I'll tell you what I do, but this is not a recommendation because I have no idea if this is a sensible approach:
I alternate days using Irons/Bai Lin for about 20 minutes during my last practice session of the night. If I am feeling especially chopped out I'll do Irons instead of Bai Lin, as I find them less taxing - probably because the more advanced Bai Lin are jumping intervals up to two octaves. Currently I will do one or two exercises from each group. So a typical Irons session for me is 6,7,9. 13,18,19,21 (depending on chops) (iirc).
My main reason for responding is to ask you about the Colin. Maybe I am mistaken but I though the Colin lip flexibilities were even more advanced (and higher) than the Bai Lin which I deem more difficult than Irons. My goal was to work my way all the way through Bai Lin and Irons this year and get the Colin book for next year, but you seem to be going the other way. Any specific reason?
It's interesting to do flexibility at the end of the day. I feel like I'm more likely to hurt myself when I'm tired. I guess I'm not nearly in the range you guys are talking about so maybe you're on to something. _________________ Kevin
Thanks again for the drive, a lifetime of fun there.
My mom gave me the Irons book when I was in High School. I have it still and use it often. For me it is a barometer for how “strong” actually relaxed I am. It helps me engage many aspects of proper playing. I like to play 5-26 sometimes I add 27. I do this once to twice a week. I do it in one session but I take my time and rest as often as I need. Group 16 and 20 can lay you out if you are not relaxed/focused. I alternate Irons with arpeggio, scale, chord, and overtone range studies. It is my thought that if we challenge our upper register in different ways like cross training we are better prepared for different challenges musically.
Thanks again for the drive, a lifetime of fun there.
My mom gave me the Irons book when I was in High School. I have it still and use it often. For me it is a barometer for how “strong” actually relaxed I am. It helps me engage many aspects of proper playing. I like to play 5-26 sometimes I add 27. I do this once to twice a week. I do it in one session but I take my time and rest as often as I need. Group 16 and 20 can lay you out if you are not relaxed/focused. I alternate Irons with arpeggio, scale, chord, and overtone range studies. It is my thought that if we challenge our upper register in different ways like cross training we are better prepared for different challenges musically.
Hope this helps. Best, Jon
Jon, what do you do on the other days, any flexibilities?
comeback cornet, in answer to your question I do a custom series of Colin that was given to me by John Coppola years ago that I've found to be very effective. I've actually cut in half what I used to do with it because I'm playing more efficiently these days and find that less is more. I'm interested in the Irons book because it seems like a nice change of pace to alternate with the Colin stuff.
What I find works best with Colin, at least for me is playing them slowly, evenly and softly (or softer at least), making sure each note centers and resonates well. I get more benefit out of it that way then just powering through :) _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject:
My teacher always prescribed a half-dozen Irons exercises. For two weeks I'd do the odd exercises, then I'd switch to the even exercises for two weeks. I was always to do these at the very end of my daily routine.
The same teacher included Bai Lin only occasionally and when he did it was always a single exercise and much earlier in the lesson plan, not sure why. And the tougher Bai Lin exercises he would usually prescribe playing them tongued for a while. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
The same teacher included Bai Lin only occasionally and when he did it was always a single exercise and much earlier in the lesson plan, not sure why. And the tougher Bai Lin exercises he would usually prescribe playing them tongued for a while.
Some of the Irons suggest slurring and tonguing, so I do that on those exercises. I have thought about practicing some of the Bai Lin's both slurred and tongued. Could anyone explain what the benefits of that might be? Right now my primary focus is on increasing endurance - and I think the Irons/Bai Lin are helping me to focus on efficiency which seems key for me. I have learned (somewhat) to really focus on making my best sound and not trying to muscle through. I therefore keep the dynamics way down on these exercises.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject:
comebackcornet wrote:
cheiden wrote:
The same teacher included Bai Lin only occasionally and when he did it was always a single exercise and much earlier in the lesson plan, not sure why. And the tougher Bai Lin exercises he would usually prescribe playing them tongued for a while.
Some of the Irons suggest slurring and tonguing, so I do that on those exercises. I have thought about practicing some of the Bai Lin's both slurred and tongued. Could anyone explain what the benefits of that might be? Right now my primary focus is on increasing endurance - and I think the Irons/Bai Lin are helping me to focus on efficiency which seems key for me. I have learned (somewhat) to really focus on making my best sound and not trying to muscle through. I therefore keep the dynamics way down on these exercises.
If I try to slur a passage I'm not entirely comfortable with there's a chance I'll up the mouthpiece pressure in an unproductive way. When I do those same exercises tongued first, I'm less likely to use as much extra mouthpiece pressure.
I've found that sometimes low volume helps avoid excess mouthpiece pressure but sometimes a little more volume gets the note to sound with less strain. In general, I go for whatever volume (within reason) facilitates the exercise always trying to stay focused on measured effort and minimal strain. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Last edited by cheiden on Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 25 May 2013 Posts: 2123 Location: Atlanta GA
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject:
Bill Ortiz wrote:
I've been using a portion of Colin most days for a long time, but recently picked up an Irons book and am looking forward to integrating it into my daily practice. For the people that are using it currently-I'm wondering how much of the book/or minutes do you use each practice day?
I like to do similar kinds of work but from different sources so I don't get stuck in a rut. One day I might do Bai Lin, Arban on another day, Franquin lip slurs on another. Also different kinds: some are the flow study kind (Bai Lin), some are the oscillating lip trill kind (Arban), some are very simple slurred pairs (Franquin, or Gekker Slow Practice, or Hickman Beyond the C).
I don't spend a lot of time on them, maybe 10 minutes or so. _________________ Bb Yamaha Xeno 8335IIS
Cornet Getzen Custom 3850S
Flugelhorn Courtois 155R
Piccolo Stomvi
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3597 Location: New York
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject:
kevin_soda wrote:
I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned the Scott Belk book. It's super fun and it'll twist your ears a bit.
As for the Irons, I love the excercises but I don't care much for the writing or the approach. Anytime I start thinking about my tongue, my tone suffers. I find the book much more beneficial if I think about my tone and try to hear the note pop into place. I also feel many players are too forceful with flexibility studies, trying to power their way through the overtone series. This is one thing Earl is very clear on. The tone should be clear and the intervals should be easy and accurate before proceeding onward. But the best part is "longtones before breakfast". Those are words to live by, for sure.
making a small but very important point here. you do sort of muscle your way into being able to complete each succeeding exercise but that is the first step. you are trying for pretty, very pretty, good tone, nicely played. that is the next step. it demonstrates that next level of strength to be able to play easily and accurately. at that point you have graduated to the next exercise. when i turn a page in the irons book i expect to be there a good while and not rush things or be impatient. the exercises will impart some large amount of strength. you need the judgment to understand that you can only gain that strength in measured doses over a period of time.
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:06 am Post subject:
Quote:
I'll tell you what I do, but this is not a recommendation because I have no idea if this is a sensible approach:
I alternate days using Irons/Bai Lin for about 20 minutes during my last practice session of the night. If I am feeling especially chopped out I'll do Irons instead of Bai Lin, as I find them less taxing - probably because the more advanced Bai Lin are jumping intervals up to two octaves. Currently I will do one or two exercises from each group. So a typical Irons session for me is 6,7,9. 13,18,19,21 (depending on chops) (iirc).
My main reason for responding is to ask you about the Colin. Maybe I am mistaken but I though the Colin lip flexibilities were even more advanced (and higher) than the Bai Lin which I deem more difficult than Irons. My goal was to work my way all the way through Bai Lin and Irons this year and get the Colin book for next year, but you seem to be going the other way. Any specific reason?
I don’t know if I quite agree with you there comebackcornet about Colin. Just because it goes a little higher, doesn’t mean it’s more difficult. It’s kind of laid out in an easier way to play than either Bai Lin or Irons, IMO. In Bai Lin, I think Series 5 is the most challenging and benefical because of the big two octave jumps. In Irons, I think it is training you’re tongue, embouchure, and air coordination very efficiently. When you get to the point where you are zipping up and down groups 21 and 22 just nice and easily and lightly, you should be set up to play group 20 and 25+26.. I feel like a lot of the exercises in Irons are to set up your playing mechanism very efficiently and relaxed so when you get to groups 20, 25, + 26, where you are playing loud high F’s and G’s above high C, it’s not such a big deal..Your chops are relaxed and you are just pushing more air through a very ‘set’ relaxed embouchure with the tongue set right at the proper level. I think that at this point, one could breeze through the Colin book.
Also comeback, I notice you don’t tackle group 22. Here’s a idea - be very low key about it. Can you do the f# one? Just kind of work up to it slowly..there’s no race on getting it When your chops feel fully rested, go to the next one. In a couple of weeks like this with your low impact practicing with plenty of rest, you’ll probably make some good strides. Just rest everytime your feel more taxation your chops rather than your tongue and air. It’s all about mindset - This is what I learned from Lynn and Pops. It’s not about thinking, “Oh, my chops will be stronger next time after some rest and I’ll be able to do more of group 22 continually.” You want to get out of that mindset. It’s more like, “Ok, my tongue and air will coordinate more and more as they get used to this, as long as I keep my chops very fresh, then I can zip through it easily and not have to worry about putting any burden on the chops." Remember we are teaching efficiency of tongue and air and not ‘building chops’. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:08 am Post subject:
Quote:
My mom gave me the Irons book when I was in High School. I have it still and use it often. For me it is a barometer for how “strong” actually relaxed I am. It helps me engage many aspects of proper playing. I like to play 5-26 sometimes I add 27. I do this once to twice a week. I do it in one session but I take my time and rest as often as I need. Group 16 and 20 can lay you out if you are not relaxed/focused. I alternate Irons with arpeggio, scale, chord, and overtone range studies. It is my thought that if we challenge our upper register in different ways like cross training we are better prepared for different challenges musically.
You gotta watch out for Johnny Ruff…He does some mega-things with is Velocity-Raptor Big Bell Diamond Dinosaur Trumpet (I believe that’s the official name). I’ve sent some high school and college students his clips. He seems to know where it’s at! Great insights as well as teaching videos and horn demonstrations. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com
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Anyone else have an answer to my question?